Swearing an Oath

[Redbear8]

I find finite hope to be much better then false hope. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and until such a time as the proof is made available I have no reason to believe any of the claims you or any one else makes about eternity.  

That's why it's called "faith." You must have faith in what you cannot see, or what cannot be proven. You have faith that all things are finite, but you have no proof of that. The fact that energy never dies and only changes form is direct proof against your beliefs. Both of you have hope and faith placed in a certain school of thought, and one day you will both find out who was "right," though it won't matter much then. You'll both be dirt and not know any better or one of you will be spending an eternity of misery and suffering. Despite what you believe right now, neither of you know the absolute truth. We choose to put our faith in things other men have told us, no matter what direction that leads you. Proof of that is that all either of you can do is quote what other men have studied or said.

[thrun]

That's why it's called "faith." You must have faith in what you cannot see, or what cannot be proven. You have faith that all things are finite, but you have no proof of that.

I don't recall ever saying everything is finite, or if something I said could be interpreted that way.  I know that the world I see around me is finite though.  It doesn't take faith to be able to observe that people die, buildings crumble and friends come and go. This is why unno says the things I derive hope from are finite.  I'm pretty sure my entire point is based on not knowing or having the ability to know if any religions claims are ultimately true until it is too late. 

Saying that I have faith in my doubts is sort of like saying my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps. 

[Redbear8]

Saying that I have faith in my doubts is sort of like saying my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps.  

That may be so, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I think that what you see is so insignificantly small compared to all that actually exists it seems a bit silly to rely only on that. It's a weakness that most humans exhibit.   Faith becomes real when you step back and recognize that "You know what, most everything I see is finite but there has got to be more to it than that." The existence of a God or angels or demons is only a small part of that. But why stop there. There's an entire universe out there with things that we are simply unable to see, and even if we could we'd likely not understand.

Faith is just an admittance that you really have no clue how infinitely complicated even your small world around you really is. When you can admit that then you can actually see enough to search for what few small answers you'll be able to find.

[thrun]

Saying that I have faith in my doubts is sort of like saying my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps. 

That may be so, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I think that what you see is so insignificantly small compared to all that actually exists it seems a bit silly to rely only on that. It's a weakness that most humans exhibit.   Faith becomes real when you step back and recognize that "You know what, most everything I see is finite but there has got to be more to it than that." The existence of a God or angels or demons is only a small part of that. But why stop there. There's an entire universe out there with things that we are simply unable to see, and even if we could we'd likely not understand.

Faith is just an admittance that you really have no clue how infinitely complicated even your small world around you really is. When you can admit that then you can actually see enough to search for what few small answers you'll be able to find.

Why does there have to be more to it then that, and what am I to have faith in since I have thousands of equally valid gods to chose from?

[Redbear8]

Saying that I have faith in my doubts is sort of like saying my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps.  

That may be so, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I think that what you see is so insignificantly small compared to all that actually exists it seems a bit silly to rely only on that. It's a weakness that most humans exhibit.   Faith becomes real when you step back and recognize that "You know what, most everything I see is finite but there has got to be more to it than that." The existence of a God or angels or demons is only a small part of that. But why stop there. There's an entire universe out there with things that we are simply unable to see, and even if we could we'd likely not understand.

Faith is just an admittance that you really have no clue how infinitely complicated even your small world around you really is. When you can admit that then you can actually see enough to search for what few small answers you'll be able to find.

Why does there have to be more to it then that, and what am I to have faith in since I have thousands of equally valid gods to chose from?

I have no clue as to why there has to be more, I just know there is. Your next question will be "Well how do you know?" Suffice it to say, that I have seen things and had experiences that are more than enough proof for me, but I seriously doubt they would translate well to you. Finding faith for yourself is only something you can do. I don't go looking to either prove or disprove anything. I choose to live my life with an open mind to all possibilities, and because of that I'm able to see things that are "invisible" to those that actively seek proof. That may sound a bit arrogant, but no more so than thinking that you see everything there could possibly be to see.

You can be confidently blind, but you're still blind.

[thrun]

I have no clue as to why there has to be more, I just know there is. Your next question will be "Well how do you know?" Suffice it to say, that I have seen things and had experiences that are more than enough proof for me, but I seriously doubt they would translate well to you. Finding faith for yourself is only something you can do. I don't go looking to either prove or disprove anything. I choose to live my live with an open mind to all possibilities, and because of that I'm able to see things that are "invisible" to those that actively seek proof. That may sound a bit arrogant, but no more so than thinking that you see everything there could possibly be to see.

You can be confidently blind, but you're still blind.

And you can be confidently full of shit, but you're still full of shit.  If faith is personal and there is no right answer to the questions then there is no point in playing the game since I get the same benefit or lack there of no matter what I chose. 

I say there doesn't have to be anything else, why because I SAY SO!  NEANER NEANER I WIN!

[Redbear8]

I have no clue as to why there has to be more, I just know there is. Your next question will be "Well how do you know?" Suffice it to say, that I have seen things and had experiences that are more than enough proof for me, but I seriously doubt they would translate well to you. Finding faith for yourself is only something you can do. I don't go looking to either prove or disprove anything. I choose to live my live with an open mind to all possibilities, and because of that I'm able to see things that are "invisible" to those that actively seek proof. That may sound a bit arrogant, but no more so than thinking that you see everything there could possibly be to see.

You can be confidently blind, but you're still blind.

And you can be confidently full of shit, but you're still full of shit.  If faith is personal and there is no right answer to the questions then there is no point in playing the game since I get the same benefit or lack there of no matter what I chose.  

I say there doesn't have to be anything else, why because I SAY SO!  NEANER NEANER I WIN!

I never asked you why you didn't believe there was anything more. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other what you believe. Whatever you choose to believe should benefit and enhance your life. If it doesn't then why the fuck believe in it?

Faith or the lack of is absolutely a personal choice. If it wasn't then you'd simply be blindly following something else. You have no clue if you get the same benefit, because you don't see what benefits I gain from my beliefs.

[Redbear8]

Just to make this clear, it is not a Christian's job to convert anyone. It's their job to spread the word. If those that hear it choose to follow it or not is entirely up to them. The God I believe in has clearly stated that once every man, woman, and child has heard the word of God the world will end.

It's commonly misunderstood by both Christan's and non-Christians alike that spreading the word means converting people. I do what I'm supposed to do despite whether or not the world thinks I'm full of shit. I'm not after human approval.

[thrun]

I never asked you why you didn't believe there was anything more. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other what you believe. Whatever you choose to believe should benefit and enhance your life. If it doesn't then why the fuck believe in it?

Faith or the lack of is absolutely a personal choice. If it wasn't then you'd simply be blindly following something else. You have no clue if you get the same benefit, because you don't see what benefits I gain from my beliefs.

I think at this point we arguing over 6 or a half dozen.   I just like asking the question, why? and if the answer I get in return is 'because I said so'  I say 'meh' and wait for the next person to ask the question of.  It doesn't invalidate their personal beliefs or validate mine.  I'm a big fan of asking these questions over and over because it helps (me at least) evaluate why we all think what we do.

I have no doubt that this discussion with unno will only harden his faith in what he believes, just as it will harden my disbelief that I will know any answers to the questions I ask.  

[Redbear8]

I never asked you why you didn't believe there was anything more. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other what you believe. Whatever you choose to believe should benefit and enhance your life. If it doesn't then why the fuck believe in it?

Faith or the lack of is absolutely a personal choice. If it wasn't then you'd simply be blindly following something else. You have no clue if you get the same benefit, because you don't see what benefits I gain from my beliefs.

I think at this point we arguing over 6 or a half dozen.   I just like asking the question, why? and if the answer I get in return is 'because I said so'  I say 'meh' and wait for the next person to ask the question of.  It doesn't invalidate their personal beliefs or validate mine.  I'm a big fan of asking these questions over and over because it helps (me at least) evaluate why we all think what we do.

I have no doubt that this discussion with unno will only harden his faith in what he believes, just as it will harden my disbelief that I will know any answers to the questions I ask.  

If you really wanted to find out why, the answers are out there. If you're just asking the questions to spark debate that's easily done. Why for one person isn't why for another. There are very few absolutes in this world. If you look for an absolute reason "to believe" then you'll just chase your tail. It's really simple to disbelieve, because it's human nature.

[thrun]

If you really wanted to find out why, the answers are out there.

This isn't going to be another one of those, the truth is in the bible things is it?  Because the god I believe in was very clear about Ragnarök in the Prose Edda.

[Redbear8]

If you really wanted to find out why, the answers are out there.

This isn't going to be another one of those, the truth is in the bible things is it?  Because the god I believe in was very clear about Ragnarök in the Prose Edda.

No, I'm with you in that the Bible has become a very valuable tool or guide for life, but isn't the end all be all to the universe. It has it's place but I never found my answers there.

[thrun]

No, I'm with you in that the Bible has become a very valuable tool or guide for life, but isn't the end all be all to the universe. It has it's place but I never found my answers there.

Well, then I go back to my default position of I don't know for sure and don't care because acknowledgement of a god has no benefit for me since I have no way of knowing what the truth is.

 

[Redbear8]

No, I'm with you in that the Bible has become a very valuable tool or guide for life, but isn't the end all be all to the universe. It has it's place but I never found my answers there.

Well, then I go back to my default position of I don't know for sure and don't care because acknowledgement of a god has no benefit for me since I have no way of knowing what the truth is.

 

There is a difference between being unable to know what the truth is and not caring what the truth is. Which one fits you?

[thrun]

There is a difference between being unable to know what the truth is and not caring what the truth is. Which one fits you?

I'd like to think being unable to know fits me better, since I obviously care some what as I am willing to have conversations about it at great length with people.  Maybe don't know/abstaining from till I do fits me better?