Swearing an Oath

[Nightstalker]

Min. 27
Det. 13

Favre 2 TD and record 271 con. starts

[Kastil]

The change in time is indeed minute. That you would not notice, or effect your personal being. But the change is measurable. Don't talk to me talk to Einstein or some of the other scientist testing this stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation The whole thing is long but, I would suggest you looking into the Experimental confirmation section.

Look into, subatomic particles called Pion's experiments at CERN have measured time dilation effects. And muons they are created by cosmic ray interaction with the upper atmosphere.  Interesting stuff.

See I knew that someone had to find that as incredible as I did. While we are obviously very limited in or knowledge and ability to do experiments to show large scale time dilation.  Word on the street is NASA has proposed an experiment. A probe in the near future that will use earth's and the sun's gravity wells to hopefully prove relativity and make it law. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/index.html

Truth in this.  Einsteins "Special Theory of Relativity" is all about time going slower the closer you are to a body of gravity or the closer to the speed of light you travel.  This is why Back to the Future is total shit.  88 mph will do crap for you even if you do have a "Flux Capacitor"....  Bill and Ted's use of wormholes is a far better chance for time travel IMO. 
The difference in the speed of time between something at the core of the earth and say the Hubble Space telescope is infinitesimal.  Maybe one day, let's say 2012, someone maybe named Mike Myers will learn how to time travel and cause the new beginning the Mayans dictated in their calander but until then time is yet out of our reach.

[Unnormal]

A little less blasphemy, a little more about beliefs of humanity's decaying state. 

[majer]

A little less blasphemy, a little more about beliefs of humanity's decaying state. 

well seeing as Notre Dame stadium has it. its okay to submit
ladys and gentlemen the orginal touchdown jesus!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_Stadium

[thrun]

Truth in this.  Einsteins "Special Theory of Relativity" is all about time going slower the closer you are to a body of gravity or the closer to the speed of light you travel.  This is why Back to the Future is total shit.  88 mph will do crap for you even if you do have a "Flux Capacitor"....  Bill and Ted's use of wormholes is a far better chance for time travel IMO. 
The difference in the speed of time between something at the core of the earth and say the Hubble Space telescope is infinitesimal.  Maybe one day, let's say 2012, someone maybe named Mike Myers will learn how to time travel and cause the new beginning the Mayans dictated in their calander but until then time is yet out of our reach.

Time is a really interesting concept when you think about it, since we are all living in the past. We as human beings perceive thing we see based off the light that has been reflected off them.  So no matter how short the time span is that it took light to come from my computer monitor to my eyes, I am still seeing what happened a millionth of a second ago not what is happening at the actual present.

When you apply this shit to astronomy it gets even more mind blowing, the fact that you are seeing billions of years ago not seeing what the universe in that particular point looks like presently.  Makes my mind go 'pop'

 

[Jim Tressel]

I just stood up. I'm younger.

[thrun]

I just stood up. I'm younger.

Did you gain mass?  Enough of that shit and your time will slow right down. 

[Kastil]

When you apply this shit to astronomy it gets even more mind blowing, the fact that you are seeing billions of years ago not seeing what the universe in that particular point looks like presently.  Makes my mind go 'pop'

Yah, that always gets me too.  I'm always amazed at the fact that if you could somehow go faster than the speed of light you could look back on earth and see the past. 
The movie "Sunshine" goes a little more into the whole gravity/speed time slowing thing and its just a good movie.

[Unnormal]

Oh dear unno, for every leader you can name that supposedly used natuarlistic excuses for their rise to power and their atrocitiess I can throw out a few dozen that used religion and god for the same means.  But that wasn't the question was it? You asked I am not sure who uses mechanics of the theory of evolution as a basis for their moral code Did you simply not know of these people? Or do you still hold to the idea that the theory of evolution is something you can believe in without believing in it's moral applications.


I'm sure if I could form the same bonds with a cow, or have lasting conversations with one such as these I would reassess my desire to eat him.  Thats what I was getting at the differentiation of consciousness is why you feel a connection. You realize that no other animal has the consciousness that we have in all the animal kingdom. You don't think for a moment they might be able to carry on a conversation, or enjoy a movie with you. You don't find a cow and ask it if it minds if you kill it and eat it. Why? because you know that there is no way one could be conscious on our level. Seeing as according to the evolutionist time line. Mammals are fairly new kids on the block you would think that you find our level of consciousness elsewhere. Obviously completely unique, and odd that not even a semblance of it is found in our closest "ancestor". (describing consciousness is hard as all other species are obviously "conscious" there should be more phrases to describe level of conciseness. Just saying.)

You are dodging the question here, if you admit that the bible has been subject to misinterpretation how do YOU know what HE is talking about?  Is you and your generation the first one to get the interpretation of it 100% right?
Oh my bad let me slightly rephrase that statement.
We can know by understanding all of God's word. He is in no way vague given the context of the rest of his word.If for some reason you had an older bible that had thou shalt not kill in it vs thou shalt not murder. You may be mislead based on that one verse. However if you had any biblical knowledge at all about the history of God or Israel and there laws, it would be apparent that the text was speaking about murder.

If your asking an additional question of how, can we be sure there are not other minute translation errors like kill and murder. We have thousands of scrolls that contain the original Hebrew and Greek translations. Check out the blueletterbible.org we can do in minutes what it took people previous days to do.



What makes you think I don't know or care what I believe? 
Out of no lack of respect for you Thrun because you are leaps and bounds beyond many of the people I know who go through life not knowing or caring what they believe.
LoL reread that for me :-D I was commending you for you knowledge on various subjects not chastising.

I only keep harping on this site because everything has situations to encourage further learning and show you how these answers are derived.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo This is the first time I actual visited it. I always assumed if it was something important or that you actually believed you would type it up and post it. After all you don't see me posting links to Christian websites saying here is your answer. I must say after as much as you talked it up I'm very disappointed at the website itself.

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things.
To say the sun is somehow responsible for increasing order as a proof for evolution is almost silly. The sun helps produce order only if you have teleonomy. Otherwise the sun aids in the decomposition or entropy.
Perhaps better put by Dr. John Ross of Harvard University.
there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.

Open systems still have a tendency to disorder. There are special cases where local order can increase at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere. One case is crystallization. The other case is programmed machinery, that directs energy into maintaining and increasing complexity, at the expense of increased disorder elsewhere. Living things have such energy-converting machinery to make the complex structures of life.

I should make a website called talktalkorigins.com So I can post all the refuted statements so they don't have to look silly.


you may or may not know this but I come from a religious family. -catholics- The only reason I could convince my parents to buy me a bass guitar since I had quit all other instruments they tried to force on me up to that point, was because I was going to play in my friend's youth group band on Wednesday nights for their Pentecostal services.  I can still play I've got a reason to shout if you'd like to hear it. I think I've forgotten how to play My god is an awesome god.  Interesting back ground. I have a number of raised catholic friends, with similar experiences. Let me ask you if you don't mind answering a personal question. Do you feel like you were raised with a understandable knowledge of scripture or do you think it was more of a set of rules you were taught. I'm not going to extrapolate any theology form this. I ask because my raised catholic friends, have indept knowledge of how mass works ect... The man made religion. But if I ask them a question in detail about the nature of God based on scripture, they tend to not know what I'm talking about.

I'm not rejecting your idea of god because of something I feel he personally did or didn't do for people around me, on a whim or out of petty spite.

It's weird, because I know my perceptions seem fatalist to you since I believe the only thing I can be certain about is the finite, and so I must do what I can to enjoy the finite then worry about the infinite if I am ever presented with it.  But the way you describe your version of hope sounds really bleak and awful to me.  I find it really, really off putting that there is no joy with out some divine intervention. Well you can certainly hope for finite things, without divine intervention. And there is of course happiness, friendship, booze  . But as you said these things are all finite. God engineered in us a strong desire to understand the "big picture" beyond what we know. I mean thats the entire field of science to understand what we don't. It drives us. It is the reason you would want to gear up and try a new raid, because you already know every boss of the one you have done 1000 times. Your not truly happy, simply excepting the things given to you without looking past the known into the unknown. I can tell by what you know about biology and cosmology you weren't happy with what you knew and your quest for that WHY? knowledge continues. As does mine.
Honestly and I know this is going to sound like some cheesy, testimony you hear on the god channel. The reason I talk about hope, joy, and meaning the way I do is because I have experienced both sides. And NOTHING compares to having the eternal hope in Jesus. And I know if I can get people who are only hoping that life doesn't throw them to many curve balls and they can work 40 hours a week and get drunk with there friends on their days off. To stop and look past the next few days and into the lens of the eternal. They will realize that there is something missing. I know because I did.

I also find the idea of existing forever terrifying, and really when I think about the size of our universe and just how long billions and billions of years are it keeps me up at night sometimes.  I like having a finish line for me, granted I think a 5000 year finish line might be a little more fun since i could see somethings that I'm not gonna but forever is way way way too long.  Dude I'm so with you. I used to stay up for ungodly amounts of time, worrying. I can not imagined being entertained for eternity. It tore at my soul. I would get bored. I felt trapped, trapped in the paradigm of eternity with no escape. One of the first things I did when I came into a true relationship with my creator is I asked him to take that from me, that fear. I have not had a sleepless night because of it since. I put my trust in him that he wouldn't make me an eternal soul if I wouldn't have wanted it. Then one night his word really spoke to me. I was reading JJohn 14 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. The guy who created everything we know and can discover in 6 days is creating a place for me? And has been since he left earth? If it were not so he would not have told me. If it would be something that might get boring he would not have told me. If it was something I could understand he would not have told me: No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him Nothing we can imagine, not our wildest dreams. If we can't comprehend what is in store for us. I can;t comprehend not wanting to be there.

Sorry for this long rant but I had to share that. Feel free to mock as you deem necessary. 












[/quote]

[thrun]

I am to drunk to reply to all of this now, so i will get to it in the morning, but if the John Ross you are talking about is the one that wrote one article for a chemical engineering magazine and you are being dishonest again.   John is as welcome as anyone else to write a paper on why thermodynamics applies to order as you are seeing it and let his peers review it.

But judging my the sites I find his name linked with  I am going to guess that it is another case of quote mining, based on my past experiences with such arguments and he isn't even aware of the argument you are putting forth or how the quote is being used to portray it.

Stop it unno, you are better then that.  

 

[Unnormal]

No you stop it. lol I will patiently wait for the booze to wear off and you to look into that further.  

[Unnormal]

For educational purposes on the the belief in Jesus:


Who is Jesus? Jesus the prophet, the teacher, the man, the God? I want to clear up some of the misunderstanding currently encountered with people who do not know about Christ. Who he said he was, and who he is. One of the first and most understandable discrepancies is the term only begotten son. But how is he the only begotten son? God himself says we are all his children. What is missed is the term begotten. The only time this is used when referring to a son of God is when talking about Christ. The Hebrew in which it was written is monogenēs  which means sole or single thing caused to be. How can that be? That sound blasphemous as we were all created by God. You see Jesus was  the only thing caused to be by God's existence. Meaning that he always was and always will be. He is in fact an express image of God. The bible explains it like this.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it(...) The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1

You see God uses terms we can understand to relay a message that is something beyond or physical understanding it is a principal of God which we can't understand unless he explains it using humanistic terms. “The word” is a term here used to describe Jesus. The word /Jesus is God. Although separate from God the father. The word is the physical part of himself that he uses to do his will. While the holy spirit is the metaphysical. All three of these entities are the same but seperate. So when you here Jesus say no one comes to the father but through me. That is absolutely true. He is the physical representation of God, his word. Jesus is not just the God of the New testament and Christians only he is the God of the old testament and all of us. He is God period.

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. John 14

You are not the only one who was confused. Some of his disciples didn't understand until after the resurrection. So why is there such discrepancy? Because, Jesus said the Father is greater than I. He taught his disciples to pray “Our father who art in heaven.” Of course adding that he is our intermediary. In that he is the physical representation of God that intercedes for us to the Father. So where is the separation where does Jesus stop and the Father begin.
I think the best way to describe it in layman terms would be this.(remember not biblical this is my way of understanding something I can;t full comprehend)  If you knew all things, could see everything before it happened played out in it's entirety. You had all knowledge and understanding what would there be left to do? Why would you do anything? You wouldn't throw a paper airplane you would know exactly where it would go how it would fly, if wind was going to catch it. It would be meaningless. So we have Jesus who is a separate entity does nothing on his own, only the will and work of the father, has all his power, ability, and knowledge of the past present and future accept for select things which only the father knows.
Talking about the end of days: But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32

The trinity is a hard thing to understand after all what is like it? Nothing we know. But, God had spoken to us about it plainly since he was revealed that we might understand.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  1John 5:7

There are lot's of people who don't believe that Jesus was in fact a physical representation of God. Anyone who acknowledges the historical figure of Jesus, but do not believe in his words, would fall into that category. That's why part of Arianism and others who claimed that Jesus was just a man were labeled heretics. They knew of the man but, didn't believe in him. You can't call yourself a Christian and not believe in the deity of Jesus.

Remember scripture was written before the corruption of Constantine, Arianism ect... Written by men who left everything followed Christ and his apostles. All except for John, gave their lives to tell his story. They had no ulterior motives.

[meowcow]

Hmmm can't help myself must throw more fuel on the fire......... So how many commandments in the bible?

[Aldoran]

I reread the thread, and while I promised myself I was done I have to make a few observations, and I'll pose them in the form of questions for Unno.

Unno, I noted an offhand comment about Gays and Liberals you made earlier. These questions are meant for your opinions based on your religion's teachings, not an opinion of the will of god. (no "I can't speak for god" cop-outs, kthx.)

Do you believe Homosexuality is immoral, and is there a place for homosexuals in your god's heaven?

Do you believe that people who are "Pro-Choice" and are for keeping Abortion legal and safe, or who have had or performed abortions, have a place in your god's heaven?

Do you believe that only through a belief in Christ and an acceptance of Jesus as your lord and savior will you be allowed into Heaven?

If one is not allowed into Heaven, is the only alternative eternal torment?

If the job of Christians is to spread the word and save people from torment, what happens to those who reject those teachings? If I choose to remain a para-pagan agnostic with militant Atheist leanings after reading the word of god, will I be damned for eternity?

What about Edna Goldstein, the Orthodox Jewish lady down the street?

What about Ahmed Muhammed Kaleed, my high school chum? He's Muslim but went to the pentecostal church a few times when dating Cindy Mason, so he heard the word of god and the truth of Jesus but stayed Muslim. Is he fucked right now?

What about the hundred branches of Christianity? Which is right? As a catholic I was taught that there are sacraments and rules, observations and prayers, but we didn't do the whole "personal salvation" thing. We accepted big J as a part of the trinity, each no more or less important than the other, and we prayed to saints for intercession.

Are all the Catholics fucked? Or the Mormons? they have that whole extra bible and the thing with the guy and the tablets and stuff... They are pretty boned, right?

What about the Buddists, Taoists, Pagans, Wiccans, Druids, Atheists, polytheists (Greek pantheon worshipers, aztec revivalists, etc), and all the other believers (or not) out there who hear about Jesus, say "good for you" and then move on? Are they all banned from the Heaven of your understanding?



I addressed these questions to our resident Jesus-dude, but I invite everyone to consider them and reply.

[thrun]

Or do you still hold to the idea that the theory of evolution is something you can believe in without believing in it's moral applications.

It has no moral applications, and anyone who is trying to use it otherwise is doing the same thing that some one who uses a holy book to justify being a dick is doing.  Are you under the impression that with out your religion society would crumble and we would all turn in to heartless monsters raping and pillaging?  You also seem to confuse with survival of the fittest with survival of the most ruthless.  Barnacles are way more fit then me to survive where they do, and do so much better then I would.  Doesn't mean that I can't go smash 10,000 of the little buggers to be an asshole but it doesn't make me any more fit to survive in their world then I was before. 

Thats what I was getting at the differentiation of consciousness is why you feel a connection. You realize that no other animal has the consciousness that we have in all the animal kingdom.

Maybe not our level, but animals do have a consciousness and it's happened before with Neanderthals.  

If your asking an additional question of how, can we be sure there are not other minute translation errors like kill and murder. We have thousands of scrolls that contain the original Hebrew and Greek translations. Check out the blueletterbible.org we can do in minutes what it took people previous days to do.

I don't care about translation errors so much as interpretation errors. how do YOU know what HIS word is saying?  Since we know from past experience that the interpretations change over time, see lightning rods.  I can pull other examples if needed.

To say the sun is somehow responsible for increasing order as a proof for evolution is almost silly. The sun helps produce order only if you have teleonomy. Otherwise the sun aids in the decomposition or entropy.

You seem to be under the impression that your perception of order has anything to do with the order the 2nd law is talking about.  

The second law concerns energy, not patterns of objects. The second law states that energy tends not to be restricted to one or a few energy levels in atoms and molecules, but to be dispersed to as many such levels as possible – rephrased in homely terms involving molecules, "Intense or concentrated energy tends to spread out and diffuse".

In that spreading-out process, macro objects sometimes are displaced and moved to random arrangements that humans subjectively define as "disorder". A violent wind not only can break a window in a building and blow the papers in an office all over a square mile, but also destroy the building itself. However, this is an incidental consequence of dispersing and spreading out of the energy in a tornado, not an event that is due to the innate nature or behavior of inanimate objects themselves in the absence of such an energy flow. Moving common objects around so they fall in disorder is a singular and accidental aspect of the universal tendency of energy to diffuse, not the general thrust or meaning or requirement of the second law that applies to objects.

The second law is a tendency, not an instantly effected edict. Its predictions might not come true for millions or billions of years. These kinds of delay are due to the second law being obstructed and hindered by what chemists call "activation energies". All the biochemicals in our bodies except inorganic substances are protected and kept from oxidation or other disastrous reaction by activation energies. Almost all the materials from which our orderly prized artifacts are made are similarly kept from rapid oxidation in air. The second law is a powerful generality, but it is often blocked (to our human advantage) in chemical substances, chemical reactions, and physical events in everyday life.
 
As far as talk origins, you don't have to take anything on talk orgins at it's word, the entire site is filled with citations to let you know how these conclusions have been arrived at.   And unless you are the smartest person ever and you've been wasting your potential up to this point, I don't think you are going to be able to amass a volume of research the likes of which they reference.  And if you did some how amass as much knowledge the collected works of thousands and thousands of scientists I'd be pretty effing amazed if you came to wildly different conclusions then the rest of them.  

But as you said these things are all finite.

I find finite hope to be much better then false hope. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and until such a time as the proof is made available I have no reason to believe any of the claims you or any one else makes about eternity.  

Let me ask you if you don't mind answering a personal question. Do you feel like you were raised with a understandable knowledge of scripture or do you think it was more of a set of rules you were taught. I'm not going to extrapolate any theology form this. I ask because my raised catholic friends, have indept knowledge of how mass works ect... The man made religion. But if I ask them a question in detail about the nature of God based on scripture, they tend to not know what I'm talking about.

I was raised primarily to believe that there was a loving god and that I should give him praise and thanks, that the bible isn't necessarily to be interpreted literally but is a moral and spiritual guide.  

Dude I'm so with you. I used to stay up for ungodly amounts of time, worrying. I can not imagined being entertained for eternity. It tore at my soul. I would get bored. I felt trapped, trapped in the paradigm of eternity with no escape. One of the first things I did when I came into a true relationship with my creator is I asked him to take that from me, that fear.

You stopped being afraid of it because you stopped thinking about it, one of the primary reasons religions existl is because they offer a security blanket for the thoughts that our brains can't handle very well on their own.  

I.E.  I like existing, not existing would suck.  Now I am worried.  But even worse, what about existing for ever?  Shit now I am really worried. Until your brain hears, "don't worry, dad's got it covered."  and pop you can shut it off.  I push shit out of my head all the time that I don't want to think about, it just crops up again sometimes or might take me a little longer because I never found proper solace in the 'don't worry, dad's got it covered' mantra.