Swearing an Oath

[Unnormal]

Well there is a misunderstanding there. Jesus is the only means for salvation now, because no other sacrifice would be even close. It renders them meaningless. Before his time, people were given certain rules, on how to handle the fall of creation to live good godly lives. And when they fell short they sacrificed. God accepted that as righteousness.
Abraham believed in God based on what he saw around him in the world and it was counted towards him as righteousness. Meaning God forgave him his short comings because he realized the truth of God based on what he knew. God is just he would not turn away any that would truly seek to find him.
Jesus said he will not come back until the whole world has been told about him. Which were getting very close to accomplishing. There is story after story of missionaries going to secluded tribes. And finding people who tell them that they have been searching for God, because of creation and their own conscience. They reject the practice they were brought up in because they know it to be wrong. cannibalism, human sacrifice, or polytheist idols ect. That should be the very meaning of searching for God. Rejecting evil and searching for good.
However, your question is valid because it takes faith to believe that God would provide a way for everyone through out history who has saught after him a opportunity to know him on a personal level via Jesus or his word. He promises it to us in his word. And as I nor anyone else heard of him breaking a promise. I have faith that he keeps that one as well.

This objection of course can not be scientifically proven either way we would need a complete personal history of humanity. Nor is it true of our experience because I don't believe either of us can find anyone who we would ask "what do you know about Jesus?" and they would answer "Who"? It is a hypothetical question. What if there is someone out there now searching for goodness, truth and meaning in this life, but doesn't hear about the one true God? Do you know anyone who would fit that description?

Since his time on earth the testament of Jesus has been spread around the world. The bible in part or whole has been translated into more than 2,287 languages which that alone should be a testament to it's validity. If God did indeed want to spread the truth throughout the world. It is of course the best selling, most translated book of all time. The Bible is available in whole or in part to some 98 percent of the world's population in a language in which they are fluent.

It is true that if God would appear to each of us and say "hey Night here I AM." Who wouldn't believe in HIM? That goes into a plethora of theology about the nature of God and how he is set apart and the nature of our existence. Most importantly he gave us free will to choose to accept or reject him. When I say him I'm talking about truth as well. The bible talks about accepting the light given to you. Light being the knowledge of good and evil. If anyone rejects evil and searches for good he will find God. That is the promise.

John 3:19-20 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Sorry thats so long I appreciate all you who take the time to read through these post. There not simple issues and hard to talk about in short length.

So Night come on I'm dying to know you read that whole thing and I'll I got back is a objection to Jesus? Nothing on time or any of that stuff, no comment? I thought maybe people would find a study of the nature of time at least semi interesting? Oh well I try  

[Nightstalker]

It is true that if God would appear to each of us and say "hey Night here I AM." Who wouldn't believe in HIM?

Thats precisely my point.

You are telling me that God wants us to know of his existence, yet he goes about it third party through Jesus, which will be subject to scrutiny, since it's not direct representation.

And according to religion, not only is the message more imporant than suggesting that you should finish your vegetables, but rather, if you do not believe or understand the message then you are going to suffer for eternity?

And this is a message to be taken seriously via third party representation, and is not all encompassing to all people? are you kidding me?

The concept of Salvation through Jesus was not known for a great many peoples for a long time after the spread of Christianity.

How then do you justly account for the damnatian of Mesoamerican, Asian, Malaysian, Eurasian, Aboriginal peoples?

That sir is a logic hole. One of the Bible's many inconsistencies..

And as God is perfect as I know God to be, then that is not of God's message.

[thrun]

Jesus fucking christ, i was going to stay out of this thread and just read but your wall of text critted me for 4000 (physical) overkill. i popped my ahnk, here comes the windfurry reprisal.   Unno, that is not how the calculations of the age of the universe work.   Also the big bang didn't create shit, it was the expansion of everything.  Everything was there, it just expanded.  (no we don't have an idea of how yet, feel free to inject god in there until such a time as the info becomes available.  No, I still won't take your answer seriously) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

I would bother to argue all this with you, but there's all ready a 30 part video series on youtube done by a guy that sounds like Alan Rickman. I keep waiting for him to say 'Yippie-ki-yay, motherfucker' but he never does.  Where he takes any creationist "science" and shreds it.  Much as http://www.talkorigins.org/ does. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY&feature=PlayList&p=AC3481305829426D&index=0&playnext=1

let's hear what Robert Price has to say about the stories in the bible compared to the stories that predate the new testament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE6KqJjeE8A

If you doubt Mr Price's credentials, or his knowledge of the bible he is a former Baptist minister with doctorates both in the New Testament and Theology. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price

Here's more discussing about how large chunks of the bible are retelling the same myths that had been told before, or by other religions independently of the bible.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm

you can believe whatever the hell you want, but telling me that you are "dropping science" on us is typical of the intelectually dishonest tactics that plague Apologetics. 

 and to go back to what we were talking about with absolute morality and truth comming from god, his own comandments prove moral relativism. 

They tell us not to bear false witness, but there are pleanty of times when lying is the better thing to do. 

For instance, when your grandmother gives you a sweater you have no intention of wearing ever because it is fucking hideous but you thank her and put it on when she comes to visit anyways because it makes her happy.

Fuck it I am going to Godwin this thread, the people who hid Ann Frank?  Dirty filthy fucking liars.  But they were doing what was right. 

Abolitionists in the South who helped with the Underground Railroad?  LIARS, bearing false witness constantly.

Thou shalt not Kill?  There are times when it is the right thing to do. 


I'm sorry that your life was such a turd that it is hopeless with out god, I am glad that you have hope now.  Hope is a good thing.  What gives most of us godless heathens hope is that we think we have one shot at it so we'd better make it count.  Take those risks, have those adventures and be nice to people you see walking down the street because there is a lot to do and a short time to get it done. 


 

[Unnormal]

You are telling me that God wants us to know of his existence, yet he goes about it third party through Jesus, which will be subject to scrutiny, since it's not direct representation. No, he wants us to know based on a number of things the complexity of existence which you have so studiously discovered, His people the Jews then the Christians, the knowledge of good and evil, The person of Jesus ect.. Jesus is far from 3rd party he is the physical representation of God himself. Separate but equal. It is an impossible idea to comprehend because we as people would have no idea where to start. But Jesus was more than just a prophet or teacher. He was the Alpha and the Omega, the creator of all things.

And according to religion, not only is the message more imporant than suggesting that you should finish your vegetables, but rather, if you do not believe or understand the message then you are going to suffer for eternity? It is true and is the reason Christians are to work so hard to tell everyone about the truth of God. It is the weight of sin and God is the only just judge. You know the thirst for justice from your own life experience if someone robs you or murders a friend you want to see them caught and in prisoned to get there just punishment. This is slightly blasphemes but He will understand. Now pretend your God and you created everything for some people. Then those people rejected you, rejected good, and did nothing but evil. In fact some of them killed your only begotten son. God is not unjustly condemning. He is judging evil for what it is. Now understanding and accepting the superiority and judgement of Gos is one of the hardest things for atheist today to accept because we live in a culture that tells us the exact opposite.

and is not all encompassing to all people? are you kidding me? The free gift of God is eternal life to all who would believe in him, no restrictions.

The concept of Salvation through Jesus was not known for a great many peoples for a long time after the spread of Christianity. Yes thats true but God was widely known before that, through the nation of Israel. Remember these people are not simply ignorant of the idea of God the were worshiping false Gods. They were not seeking good, they were worshiping sticks and metal. That let them do whatever evil they want. I think you may be separating the God of the old testament, from the God of the new. I think what might be missing is the fact that people don't have to see God to believe in him and never have. You didn't, I have experienced him but never physically seen him.  The bible teaches a lot about how the nature of God and how we couldn't stand in his presence we are not worthy, unless forgiven by him. We would simply die. It goes right back to fundamentally rejecting the evilness of man and seeking good. For who is good but God alone.

How then do you justly account for the damnatian of Mesoamerican, Asian, Malaysian, Eurasian, Aboriginal peoples? Well first of all thats not something I wouldn't possibly do or rightly answer only God can. I will not be judging he will, and justly by there works (Rev 22:12) But I will tell you By the end of the New Testament the chronicling of the spread of the Gospel and the story of Jesus had reached practically the whole province of Asia. Thats before 98A.D. incredibly fast. (Acts 19:26 and others). That DOES NOT MEAN that only people in those areas could be saved. Gods word is fraught with the stories of God saving just people, who lived amongst people who rejected truth.


That sir is a logic hole. Well, while I obviously disagree. It is a excellent argument form a human perspective. The truth is we can not understand the ways of God and know how his will is done. You don't have to believe in the bible to realize that you can just go outside and look up. A huge part of humility and Christianity is accepting that God knows better than you, even in your own life. He always has and he always will. To say God's word isn't true because you personally have reservations about how he did, what he did. Would seem to indicate that if you were God you would have done it better. You can't possibly know that.  (I.E. appeared to all humanity and made them believe and respect you) Which in of itself would violate the reason God made us: freely given love and worship. Once again God promises when talking about salvation:

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8

One of the Bible's many inconsistencies.
Please sir elaborate  

And as God is perfect as I know God to be, then that is not of God's message.
Night I very much respect your point of view, and you as a person. I have always have liked you. You got the fiya in ya. But I have to ask, you know of God. You know he is brilliant and perfect. Created this world and it's systems with mathematical precision yet flexibility to allow life to a degree we can't comprehend. Made the cosmos in a way we can only begin to figure out. Do you think he would go through all that trouble to watch us sit on a rock and decay? Or does the obvious work he put into this place and humanity not indicate that he might want more from you than just a tip of your hat in his direction, acknowledging he is there. Maybe he wants to know you personally? Who are we that God would go through all that trouble?

So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.[/b] Even now we are his prized possession, not some meaningless lump of cells forgotten by there creator left to fend for themselves on planet he cares nothing about. We are the prized possession of ALMIGHTY GOD! To the extent that he shares in our suffering with us, is willing to look past our sins, our disbelief, our shortcomings, and offer us at the cost of Jesus Christ death on the cross forgiveness of all of our trangressions if we just ask him. Psalms 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth. If you just call on his name he is there, what other creature can make such a claim that him who created all things is at his call? Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation!? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

[Nightstalker]

I'm sorry that your life was such a turd that it is hopeless with out god

Take those risks, have those adventures and be nice to people you see walking down the street because there is a lot to do and a short time to get it done.  

Hypocrisy crits you for 89000

[Unnormal]

LOL welcome back Thrun! BTW I would love to meet up and talk mysteries of the universe with you but I can't grow facial hair. Your beard would do all the talking and I would loose any subsequent argument by default.  But of course next time I'm around those parts I'll have to stop in and ask you what you know about the Lord.

Unno, that is not how the calculations of the age of the universe work. Ouch thats true. +1 I made an assumption based on how they used to measure the age by measuring recessional velocities. I was glad that was in, the Theory section of my post.   Bear in mind the rest of it is completely valid. And may have application as well to the radiation dating of Gamma rays.
It is obvious I need to renew my subscription to scientific American. I'm more than happy to admit when my scientific theories are wrong.  

you can believe whatever the hell you want, but telling me that you are "dropping science" on us is typical of the intelectually dishonest tactics that plague Apologetics. The dilation of time points are completely valid. The section I clearly marked as my theory is obviously a misunderstanding on my part. Don't try to make it out like I'm somehow being purposely intellectually dishonest.  

the people who hid Ann Frank?  Dirty filthy fucking liars.  But they were doing what was right. Doing what was right based on what? The sanctity of human life? It certainly wasn't survival of the fittest. Please elaborate.Is there a basis of judging right from wrong apart from naturalist principals?


Everything was there, it just expanded.
That would violate the laws of thermo dynamics = heat death.

Thou shalt not Kill?  There are times when it is the right thing to do.   Touche` I thought this might come up. The proper translation is not kill it is Thou shall not murder. Killing is deemed necessary through a number of different situations through out the bible wars, punishment ect. So in essence your right if God told us not to kill anyone ever it would be hypocritical. It is murder HE is talking about.


They tell us not to bear false witness, but there are pleanty of times when lying is the better thing to do.  

For instance, when your grandmother gives you a sweater you have no intention of wearing ever because it is fucking hideous but you thank her and put it on when she comes to visit anyways because it makes her happy Thats not a lie thats respecting your elders another biblical principal. Your actually wearing that hideous sweater because you love her.

What gives most of us godless heathens hope is that we think we have one shot at it so we'd better make it count.  Take those risks, have those adventures and be nice to people you see walking down the street because there is a lot to do and a short time to get it done.  

So those those born with terminal illnesses have no hope. If hope is based on time, your hope is fleeting just as quickly as the clock ticks. There is a lot to do? What is there to do? That would indicate that you have some purpose that needs to be fulfilled? What is it? To experience all the great things in life. Then what hope do people have that are disabled and can't, or born into oppression. What can they hope for?

Welcome back I missed you! Honestly I was afraid you might not come back after that post sat there for a few hours. We have a lot more to talk about, and you can set me straight as far as my misguided theories go. And that was a whirlwind post in which you promptly dominated my theory I had come up with with obvious lacking contemporary knowledge. I got PWNT you should feel good about that.

[Nightstalker]

But Jesus was more than just a prophet or teacher. He was the Alpha and the Omega, the creator of all things.

He is only the Alpha and the Omega as a result of Constantine's accord, not by God's command.
You could just as easily be believing opposite that now, if the politics of the day suited Constantine in favor of Arianism at Nicaea.

It is true and is the reason Christians are to work so hard to tell everyone about the truth of God.

Christians work hard or else they are damned.
They are but gears to a sado-masachist machine.
They along with almost all other major religions have hijacked the concepts and truth of God, and politicized it to be a self interesting machine, or else it's participants burn eternally.
And for those that associate closely, or are inside such religions that do not believe in God, they profit at the expense of the lambs.

You must think me overbearing in this judgement, but with your own words you have acknowledged this fact when christians boast that the bible is the best selling book as an arguement point.

which leads to this quote..

The free gift of God is eternal life to all who would believe in him, no restrictions.

Apparently it's not free, and there are restrictions... money.

Religions are false, and true followers should bare shame at the thought of such books as the Bible and Koran at the top of best sellers. If such religions were true, then they would be at the bottom of the list.

I've never known God to need money

Now pretend your God and you created everything for some people. Then those people rejected you, rejected good, and did nothing but evil. In fact some of them killed your only begotten son. God is not unjustly condemning.

You do realize the visage of God you are trying to impress with this statement right? You are suggesting that an omniscient God created us just to torment us eternally, knowing in advance that we would go against him.

But for the sake of argument, lets say that your visage of God is how he actually is..


1. If God is Jesus, then God is hypocritical in that he, as Jesus suggests to turn the other cheek.

2. If it is God's son, then it is not God. This is another contradiction in the bible, which supports the notion of Arianism. They never did get around to cleaning that one up after the council, or else God would be pissed because you killed him and not his son.

Well first of all thats not something I wouldn't possibly do or rightly answer only God can. I will not be judging he will, and justly by there works

What? You just were referencing God from his perspective, in killing his son, now you will not?

Well since you are selectively cherrypicking questions, I will tell you the answer. If going by the tenants of Christianity, Jesus is the only way to salvation, and people outside the initial sphere of that knowledge have just been sentenced to damnation.

Otherwise Jesus being the only way to salvation is FALSE.   This is logic and cannot be refuted.

This then means that a great host of people throughout history, that have not been fortunate enough to roll the dice and land within the sphere of christianity are burning in hell eternally.

But I will tell you By the end of the New Testament the chronicling of the spread of the Gospel and the story of Jesus had reached practically the whole province of Asia. Thats before 98A.D. incredibly fast.

This is referencing Asia Minor, not Oriental Asia. Asia Minor is essentially Anatolia going into Iranian area.

The truth is we can not understand the ways of God and know how his will is done. You don't have to believe in the bible to realize that you can just go outside and look up. A huge part of humility and Christianity is accepting that God knows better than you, even in your own life.

And I don't need a Bible nor Christianity to come to that conclusion. In fact the better part of my understanding of God came after I left the machine that is religion.

Night I very much respect your point of view, and you as a person. I have always have liked you. You got the fiya in ya. But I have to ask, you know of God. You know he is brilliant and perfect. Created this world and it's systems with mathematical precision yet flexibility to allow life to a degree we can't comprehend. Made the cosmos in a way we can only begin to figure out. Do you think he would go through all that trouble to watch us sit on a rock and decay?

I'll enlighten you on my knowledge of God in such matters as to the "decay" of people, but only if you would genuinly care.

[Ellanorah]

i am of the belief that if people actually saw God, they still wouldn't believe.
Same with Christ.
faith is to hope for things which are not seen which are true.  You can't have real faith if you have actually SEEN something, if there is proof etc...it makes it NOT faith.  

also, the BIG BANG....
I don't believe God can create things out of nothing...it defies all laws of nature, God did however organise matter to "create" things.

and jester, I haven't heard of that guy.

[Unnormal]

Christians work hard or else they are damned.
Thats not true. Perhaps you have heard it said salvation is not by works. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. Nothing. We works because we want to, not because we have to.

Apparently it's not free, and there are restrictions... money.
Can I quote my first post? God is not a set of rules, he doesn't need your money and he isn't some distant being not paying attention you. Why would God need your money? Answer is he doesn't. We give to further the cause of Christ of our own freewill. We recognize that God is the one who blesses us with everything so we, give back by sacrificing some of what we earned. You don't have to is our choice.
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion... 2nd Corin 9:7
And trust me we are not charging anyone for bibles unless they want to buy them. Gideons, bible league, any church, Christian homeless shelter, oversees missions all free.

You do realize the visage of God you are trying to impress with this statement right? You are suggesting that an omniscient God created us just to torment us eternally, knowing in advance that we would go against him. Did he have full foreknowledge of what was going to happen, he did. The fall of man and spiral into a sinful nature, denying the very work of his hand? Yes, he did but because of his great love for us who would believe and love him, he allowed free will into the world Knowing full well the work, grief, and sacrifice he would have to go through to recover his lost sheep. To say that our hope and salvation did it just so he could torment people. Comes from not knowing the true nature of God.

If God is Jesus, then God is hypocritical in that he, as Jesus suggests to turn the other cheek Well obviously a man judging and taking revenge is a lot different than  omniscient, omnipotent God justly judging that aside. He does turn the other cheek over and over and over again every time you sin against him. That is why there is a delay in judgment so we might come to repentance. If God didn't turn the other cheek we wouldn't last long.

You just were referencing God from his perspective, in killing his son, now you will not?
pointing out a brief perspective of our known actions against God and asking me to tell you the inner most thoughts and reasons God does what he does are two vastly different things. One is knowable one is not.

Well since you are selectively cherrypicking questions, I answered all your questions  

Otherwise Jesus being the only way to salvation is FALSE.   This is logic and cannot be refuted. Unless of course Jesus and God are one in the same. No one maintains that you had to call on the name of Jesus for salvation before he was made know. Not the bible, not christianity.  Which leads into If it is God's son, then it is not God. I'll get to this tomorrow. Promise.


And I don't need a Bible nor Christianity to come to that conclusion. In fact the better part of my understanding of God came after I left the machine that is religion. I still maintained you can not know God beyond acknowledging the need for his existence, beside some way of discovering his nature= His word. As far as Christianity ya it is a sad state of affairs. The message of  Christ has been hijacked by every evil scheme known to man. The only way to stay strong is to trust in God and measure everything you hear against his holy word.


I'll enlighten you on my knowledge of God in such matters as to the "decay" of people, but only if you would genuinly care.  Of course please enlighten me. Pretty sure thats the reason I'm here is to talk about that sort of thing :-)

[thrun]

I'm sorry that your life was such a turd that it is hopeless with out god

Take those risks, have those adventures and be nice to people you see walking down the street because there is a lot to do and a short time to get it done.  

Hypocrisy crits you for 89000

Ok that was harsh, but unno is putting forth the idea that you have to have god in order to have hope.

How is me putting the forth that being nice to people is hypocritical? monkeys don't need god to be alturistic and neither do polar bears and dogs.
[yt=425,350]JE-Nyt4Bmi8[/yt]

Or are you just saying a I am an asshole to everyone all the time?

[thrun]

The sanctity of human life? It certainly wasn't survival of the fittest. Please elaborate.Is there a basis of judging right from wrong apart from naturalist principals?

I am not sure who uses mechanics of the theory of evolution as a basis for their moral code but that's not it's intended purpose.  But from a naturalist perspective altruism exists because as a species we wouldn't have lasted long had we not been concerned with what happened to other humans.  The ones that were the best at playing nice with each other grouped up and survived.    Human life isn't necessarily sacred, but as a human I do have a vested interest in the life of other humans.

  Theory

You keep using that word interchangeably with 'guess' despite efforts to show you what a theory is when it applies to science.  So come on, that is being a little dishonest with yourself.  I don't need to be proud of myself or a pat on the back to explaining to you this stuff, it's just part of the discussion. 

Touche` I thought this might come up. The proper translation is not kill it is Thou shall not murder. Killing is deemed necessary through a number of different situations through out the bible wars, punishment ect. So in essence your right if God told us not to kill anyone ever it would be hypocritical. It is murder HE is talking about.

You've already admitted that the Bible is subject to misinterpretation, why would god be vague about a pretty important rule?  how do you really know that is what HE is talking about?

So those those born with terminal illnesses have no hope. If hope is based on time, your hope is fleeting just as quickly as the clock ticks. There is a lot to do? What is there to do? That would indicate that you have some purpose that needs to be fulfilled? What is it? To experience all the great things in life. Then what hope do people have that are disabled and can't, or born into oppression. What can they hope for?

One of the more gentle, and intelligent well rounded people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing was a guy named Travis.  He was born with cystic fibrosis.  Wasn't supposed to make it much past 16.  Last I checked he'll be turning 29 or 30 this Christmas. Contstantly in and out of the hospital and having to go through regiments that I would call torture just to keep living.   You'd probably have to ask him where he finds his hope himself but I do know he is full of it and it isn't coming from Jesus.  Having a shorter clock doesn't preclude you from living a full life.

As far as purpose, my main one seems to be maximizing pleasure while minimizing pain.  I've got all these neat chemicals in my brain that tell me when something sucks and when something feels good.   Things like companionship, learning something new, seeing something new, music and keeping generally busy give me the good feeling.  Things like getting my ass kicked and stagnation seem to give me the bad feelings.

From a biological perspective the purpose of life is to make more life, so far I have decided to obtain from it.  I will probably continue to do so since it's more responsibility then I care to take on. 

If you are looking for some sort of 'big purpose'  I don't have one, not sure I ever will.  I've searched around a few places and found more questions then answers. 

That would violate the laws of thermo dynamics = heat death.

No, this is a misunderstanding of what the laws of thermodynamics actually mean.  Remember, we are dealing with TOTAL entropy not LOCAL entropy.

Here's a fairly good laymen's explanation

Entropy always increases over time. The early universe was very smooth and uniform. This is a highly ordered [low entropy] state. It is now wrinkled and lumpy, a lower ordered [high entropy] state. Think of it as a perfectly made bed sheet [high order]. Once you sleep on it the sheet gets wrinkled [low order]. There are many more wrinkled states available than perfectly smooth states.

[Unnormal]

I am not sure who uses mechanics of the theory of evolution as a basis for their moral code but that's not it's intended purpose. Hitler, Stalin, Mao... you get the idea. You can't say you actually believe in something and deny it's implications.

But from a naturalist perspective altruism exists because as a species we wouldn't have lasted long had we not been concerned with what happened to other humans.  The ones that were the best at playing nice with each other grouped up and survived.    .  I fundamentally disagree on your assertion of altruism based on survival of the species. History has proved that our survival is based on who is willing to kill the most people that disagree with them, and in how horrific a manner. That is every kingdom, nation and war, we have ever known. We are self centered creatures. We are not a world power because the president goes and has tickle fights with Kim jong il. We are a world power because were rich we like it and if you try to mess with us or or money we will kill you and everyone you ever loved. Is it extreme yes, is it cruel yes, is it reality, absolutely. These other countries who have publicly stated they wan't america to burn are not attacking us for one reason and one reason only, not because there altruistic.

Human life isn't necessarily sacred, but as a human I do have a vested interest in the life of other humans Well I have to ask why humans why not dog's or cows?

You've already admitted that the Bible is subject to misinterpretation, why would god be vague about a pretty important rule?  how do you really know that is what HE is talking about? Thats why it is important to understand all of God's word. He is in no way vague given the context of the rest of his word.If for some reason you had an older bible that had thou shalt not kill in it vs thou shalt not murder. You may be mislead based on that one verse. However if you had any biblical knowledge at all about the history of God or Israel and there laws, it would be apparent that the text was speaking about murder.

As far as purpose, my main one seems to be maximizing pleasure while minimizing pain. The purpose of life = to minimize pain. I'm sorry to hear that is what it comes down to. Out of no lack of respect for you Thrun because you are leaps and bounds beyond many of the people I know who go through life not knowing or caring what they believe. Might I suggest that...and keeping generally busy give me the good feeling.  Is how most people ignore reality and end up never asking themselves what there purpose is. Because if you were to actively get involved in the world around you. You would be forced to ask the big questions in life.

From a biological perspective the purpose of life is to make more life All of you assertions of hope and meaning exclude groups of people. What about those that can not bear children? There is only one hope that could encompass all humanity that could be true for everyone.

If you are looking for some sort of 'big purpose'  I don't have one, not sure I ever will.  I've searched around a few places and found more questions then answers.   Keep searching, the very fact that you would state your searching for such a meaning would indicate to me the God given desire to find him. Obviously that probably makes you mad that I would relate your personal feelings to theology. But, everything points in that direction. Humanity/politics, microbiology, cosmology, all the way down to your own personal existence and feelings. The need for hope and meaning. The knowledge of good and evil.


Entropy always increases over time.  So you then acknowledge things are continually going from a state of order to disorder defying the theory of macro evolution? The only field of science where this law is given no heed.


I liked hearing about your friend Travis I would be personally interested in talking to him and asking him those very questions. Having a shorter clock doesn't preclude you from living a full life. That was indeed my point and a biblical principal (given we have a clear definition of what a full life is.) But to make that point you have to know what purpose is and what you have hope for in the future. For someone like Travis if he has hope only in the flesh then he knows his hope is lost, as we all do since we are all terminal just on different time lines.

I realize that hope and meaning are difficult subjects from a naturalist perspective. Because by it's very definition there is no hope in anything but nature. And we all know nature is not eternal that we will die, our earth will die, and our sun will die. If you follow that belief system through to its logical end. You end up where Aldoran is "You want to know what purpose, what comfort there is? There isn't one. We live life alone, die alone, and are judged by those who know us. There is no purpose in life or death, which makes the evils men do that much more horrible."

[thrun]

Hitler, Stalin, Mao... you get the idea. You can't say you actually believe in something and deny it's implications.

Oh dear unno, for every leader you can name that supposedly used natuarlistic excuses for their rise to power and their atrocitiess I can throw out a few dozen that used religion and god for the same means.  Let's not play that game.  Though I did read an interesting book on why they were able to do so, regardless of what excuse they were using.  It's called the Lucifer Principle.  It's a good read but a thick one.

 I fundamentally disagree on your assertion of altruism based on survival of the species. History has proved that our survival is based on who is willing to kill the most people that disagree with them, and in how horrific a manner.

I won't ever argue that there aren't flaws in human nature, and that we aren't selfish and capable of horrid things.  There are just as many selfish motivations that drive me to be part of a society as altruistic ones.  I get a huge benefit from team work with other people and it greatly increases my quality of life. So there is certainly a selfish drive there.  If we hadn't been motivated to work together early on then we wouldn't have made it long enough to build a world where we were capable of these levels of violence, or conversely beauty.  It's  a balance between the good and bad.  

Well I have to ask why humans why not dog's or cows?

I do have a vested interest in the survival of cows, I use them for food. I have a vested interest in the welfare of other animals because we have seen time and time again what can happen if a species is wiped out from or introduced to an environment.  I place a higher value on human life because I am a human.  I'm sure if I could form the same bonds with a cow, or have lasting conversations with one such as these I would reassess my desire to eat him.  

Thats why it is important to understand all of God's word. He is in no way vague given the context of the rest of his word.If for some reason you had an older bible that had thou shalt not kill in it vs thou shalt not murder. You may be mislead based on that one verse. However if you had any biblical knowledge at all about the history of God or Israel and there laws, it would be apparent that the text was speaking about murder.

You are dodging the question here, if you admit that the bible has been subject to misinterpretation how do YOU know what HE is talking about?  Is you and your generation the first one to get the interpretation of it 100% right?

Thrun because you are leaps and bounds beyond many of the people I know who go through life not knowing or caring what they believe.

What makes you think I don't know or care what I believe?  I am pretty firm in my belief that I have no answers to what happens to me when I die, and neither does anyone else.  How am I not actively involved in the world around me? I work, read, make art, help those around me when I can, help my mother take care of her sick brothers and sisters, play with my nephews and try to teach them what I can when I can.  I mean granted I am not curing cancer or writing the next Sgt Pepper's, but I've made a few heads bang and made life easier for everyone I can.

So you then acknowledge things are continually going from a state of order to disorder defying the theory of macro evolution? The only field of science where this law is given no heed.

Your perceptions of entropy, order and disorder are again skewed locally.  Thermo dynamics deals with TOTAL entropy.  
This is a fairly clear cut explanation as to why not only do these laws have nothing to do with the type of order you are talking about, as well as even if they did they wouldn't be a violation. I only keep harping on this site because everything has situations to encourage further learning and show you how these answers are derived.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo


As far as saying that some one who is infertile is purposeless, that is silly.  It's just that life has a biological need to reproduce itself.  It's one of the criteria for calling something alive.   People and animals that can't breed still have the same impulses to do so, they are just shooting blanks.  I think you confuse purpose with hope.  I can lead a perfectly purposeless existence and still have plenty of hopes.  I've been doing so for about 29 years now, and you may or may not know this but I come from a religious family. -catholics- The only reason I could convince my parents to buy me a bass guitar since I had quit all other instruments they tried to force on me up to that point, was because I was going to play in my friend's youth group band on Wednesday nights for their Pentecostal services.  I can still play I've got a reason to shout if you'd like to hear it. I think I've forgotten how to play My god is an awesome god.  

I know some people like to use personal hardships and tragedies as a reason to turn away from religion, or to turn to it.  Believe me I have had my share of these as I am sure everyone else has.  While my decision not to participate in religion is a personal choice, I can assure you that it was arrived at with reason and thought and continues to be thought about on a fairly regular basis. I'm not rejecting your idea of god because of something I feel he personally did or didn't do for people around me, on a whim or out of petty spite.

It's weird, because I know my perceptions seem fatalist to you since I believe the only thing I can be certain about is the finite, and so I must do what I can to enjoy the finite then worry about the infinite if I am ever presented with it.  But the way you describe your version of hope sounds really bleak and awful to me.  I find it really, really off putting that there is no joy with out some divine intervention.

I also find the idea of existing forever terrifying, and really when I think about the size of our universe and just how long billions and billions of years are it keeps me up at night sometimes.  I like having a finish line for me, granted I think a 5000 year finish line might be a little more fun since i could see somethings that I'm not gonna but forever is way way way too long.  

[Jim Tressel]

Time doesn't change the higher up you go.  That's nonsense.  

If you go straight up and remain at the exact same longitude, time neither speeds up nor slows down.  This is because we minced up the passage of time into equal units (seconds) based on the duration of the Earth's rotation and assuming the earth rotates evenly and isn't like the jelly in a fucking lava lamp, a line can be drawn straight out from the center of the world and all points along that line will take the same amount of time to complete a full rotation, though the points closer to the center will obviously have a lower linear velocity.  The clock in Colorado might certainly be ticking faster, and it might certainly have something to do with altitude, but we don't say that water boils faster in Colorado because time is fucking quicker, now do we?  Lifting something up it changes time...bullocks.

[Unnormal]

The change in time is indeed minute. That you would not notice, or effect your personal being. But the change is measurable. Don't talk to me talk to Einstein or some of the other scientist testing this stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation The whole thing is long but, I would suggest you looking into the Experimental confirmation section.

Look into, subatomic particles called Pion's experiments at CERN have measured time dilation effects. And muons they are created by cosmic ray interaction with the upper atmosphere.  Interesting stuff.

See I knew that someone had to find that as incredible as I did. While we are obviously very limited in or knowledge and ability to do experiments to show large scale time dilation.  Word on the street is NASA has proposed an experiment. A probe in the near future that will use earth's and the sun's gravity wells to hopefully prove relativity and make it law. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/index.html