Swearing an Oath

[Garenth]

I'm an argumentative son of a bitch, and this is one of the subjects that gets the blood most riled up for me.  :-) 

The other is Jam Bands.  Fucking Jam bands.

+1 to Kas I laughed out loud on this!

[Kastil]

And if this doesn't make you believe in a creator then I don't know what will:

I'd probably pray to her

No crap! maybe it was her large eyes or her even larger lips and mouth but many a chubby went to her in the mid to late 90's.

[Unnormal]

Alright so I sat down last night and wrote out a response in detail to your question. It included a ridiculous amount of information and was many pages long. Because the question itself is based on so many misunderstandings. Misunderstandings about our existence, the nature of God, why suffering exist, the miracles of Jesus/God, how he intervenes in our lives, ect...
So I'm going to write them out in simple point by point format without elaborating, so I can get to your question without having to teach a course on the biblical fundamentals that govern existence. Then if you have any objections, counter points, questions, I can elaborate and give examples.

1. God created man perfect in his image. No suffering.
2. The fall of man, his separation from God, the entrance of sin, punishment, suffering as a direct result of this event
  2.(a) The punishment of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
3. That we are God's prized possession, and he does not want any to suffer but all to come to repentance.
4. That he with full fore knowledge of the events that would take place made us with free will, and that he understood in advance the sorrow, suffering, and lengths he would have to go through to recover humanity form it's state.
5. That this life is temporary suffering. As a result of the fall of man.
6. because of his love for us God allows suffering. If you mind was not just blown I'll repeat that statement. Because of his love for us God allows suffering.
7. As Christians we are not exempt from suffering, in fact we should expect increased suffering
8. That we are not to have any hope in the flesh, that our bodies are wasting away, with or without limbs, sight, ect...

I'll stop there to elaborate on nine. 9. The miracles of Jesus/God. God is not a vending machine, you do not put in a prayer and get out what ever candy coated miracle, you ask for. There are certain promises that he makes, but no where does he somehow say that if you are a Christian you will have a life free of pain, suffering, poverty ect.. quite the opposite. The entire question comes form the point of view that the flesh is all we have. If all we had was this life and this body. Loosing a leg would be a catastrophic deal. How horrible it would be to go through life without a limb, or blind, or sick! It is those very afflictions that make us realize how fragile our lives are! Jesus, healing the sick, the blind, and the afflicted was not about that persons eyes or their physical bodies. It was about their faith that he was the Son of GOD. (Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you." Luke 18:42) That is what healing was about to testify that he was the Lord God. You see that act, thinking only of the physical ramifications, but it is the outward expression of an inward change that came from believing in God.  

10.  He knows the numbers of hairs on your head, nothing escapes his knowledge. If any affliction comes. Amputation, cancer, heart attack. He already knows and has allowed it to happen.

There is more but will get to the question to save on time. You see this as a test for God, well if God is God grow this arm back! You would reject every other proof of God in creation, pay no head to the miracle that you are, and ask mockingly to see something you think impossible... The request it self is of a superficial nature, not even understanding why God would heal someone. Besides! FORGET AMPUTATION! That is but a footnote in the arena of suffering a joke that people who truly suffer would laugh at! I know it sounds dramatic but I work at a huge hospital. I comfort, love, and give hope in Jesus to people who would love to be just missing a foot. To kids, an adorable 4 year old girl born with leukemia won't make it to 5, a baby who's parents were to methed out to care and just leave it to suffer and die before paramedics found it, Young husbands with young kids and wives who's organs shut down with no cause! I don't think you even begin to comprehend how bad it gets in this life! Until you have been there. SO you ask well why doesn't God make them all well if he loves them so much? It is this place that is there affliction! In this life all will suffer, all will grow old, and  all will die. He is taking them out of their suffering it is just in a way that you don't understand because your answer to life and what comes next is  “I have no fucking clue, and neither does anyone else.” You see there is a lack of hope in atheism! That lack of hope comes form a lack of truth. You pretend that God is the problem when he is the answer! What hope do you have for the cripple? What promise to the cancer patient, what comfort to parents who just watched their child die? Um, thats to bad, better luck next time, the same series of random events that caused you to come into being have caused this tragedy, this life is a meaningless existence with no actual purpose. What would you tell them?

Can God heal amputees? Absolutely. It would take a man of faith to trust in God and ask for healing and it would happen. But, we know that God already knows our limb is gone. Nothing escapes his knowledge. Would he grow it back so that he might be glorified in the miracle that was performed, maybe that's up to him. But we don't care either way.  As long as God is glorified in it and his will is done. Because with or without our legs, with or without sight, with or without our very lives. We know the endgame, we know our destinations, We have the only hope for the hopeless, forgiveness for the sinner, rest for the weary, and solution to the problem of death itself. What is a limb to us but a hand that praises the Lord or a foot that walks in his footsteps. Or hope is not in the flesh. Were all going to die, you know that for a fact. It doesn't matter how.

Why doesn't he? I'm not God I don't know exactly why that particular miracle has no record of it being done. He is so much more knowledgeable and wise than me. I can not begin to understand all the ways of God. But if I had to guess It would be that he wants other people who suffer the same affliction to witness how a man of God handles it. How much different it is to live with suffering and have hope. As a matter of fact I don't know why he would, when it is such an awesome testimony of how God can, fulfill anyones life even in the face of severe adversity. That has been the testimony of crippled, sick and dying Christians all over the world. In a weird way it is why we are here.  (For future reference http://www.testimonyshare.com/quadriplegic-saved-by-grace/)

Do churches have lightning rods yes they do. Because, we know as Christians that hardships will come. Even more so for us that God might be glorified in how we handle them. That we will be examples of the hope that is in Jesus Christ.



I wrote a note about suffering a while back and I would like to share it with you. Not as part of the answer but as recommended reading.
The apostle Paul wrote an interesting and profound word from the Lord, that if it is for this life only we have hope in Christ we are to be pitied more than all men. For many years when I read that verse I thought only of its application to those of us who believe. But as my growth in Christ continues and I learn more about this life and the nature of men. It occurred to me that the reverse is also true, and perhaps more wide spread in its application than just people of faith. If all we have is hope in the flesh (I.E. naturalism, no God, no loving creator, no absolute truth) Then people as a species are not just to be pitied but we are living in a torturous state of consciousness. Just think of it trillions of cells/species/whatever that developed over billions of years and by mere chance and natural selection you wind up with smart monkeys who know: right from wrong, dead from alive, driven by conscious decision making and not instinct, and most of all are self aware. In our self awareness we realize we are physical finite beings who will some day die. We grow, learn, love, fear create, choose our destinies; based on passed down traits and random synapses firing in the grey matter in our heads but for what? To have fun out of the blink of an eye we call life? To work our lives away store up what we can, retire at 60 and hope were not to decrepit to enjoy Florida?.. If we make it that long. Most if not all reading this probably don't consider yourselves tortured, but is it because your not? or because like most of us we fill our lives with the here and the now. The acute focus of today and what makes me happy now; and what you think you can do to obtain your own happiness. Because the truth is we live in a world controlled by fear, famine, disease, murder, greed, lust, and any evil you can imagine. A place where the "have not's" die or are murdered on a daily basis around the world and, just might make the 9 o'clock news. While the "have's" ignore it, act like it isn't happening, or at best mention to a friend what a shame it is. On the average, a person dies every second as a result of hunger - 4000 every hour - 100 000 each day - 36 million each year - 58 % of all deaths (2001-2004 estimates) 15 Million.. 15 MILLION OF THEM EVERY YEAR ARE CHILDREN WHO NEVER EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO KNOW LIFE! How many died today while you ate lunch at work, How many in the seconds it has taken you to read this. Yet people still have the audacity to look me in the face when I talk about this and say "Luke it isn't that bad" While I got big news it is that bad in fact it is worse than our small minds can imagine; and this is just hunger you want to talk about war, genocide, oppression torture! Most of us don't have the stomach or the mental capacity to comprehend how deep it gets.
 What I'm trying to say is this. If your hope and reason for getting up in the morning is simply because your alive by a roll of the dice and it is your day to be alive. You are to be pitied more than any other creation/life form in existence. Maybe if you ignore the "have not's" and don't concern yourself with the reality and choices of existence, maybe if all your plans go right and there arn't to many speed bumps in the road of life you can eek out some semblance of success or happiness in this life for a few years. But the truth is that it probably isn't going to happen, none of us are even promised another day of life. As a dear deist friend of mine said, " It is a miracle that we wake up in the morning". It doesn't matter what you believe we are all one heart beat away from the great unknown. One aneurysm, one bad decision on the highway, one false step on a ladder, one accident at work believe me I work at a hospital I have seen it. Yet most of us slip through life saying it isn't that bad, there is always tomorrow, who are the "have not's"? So when I refer to Jesus as our hope and savior it has new found meaning to my ears.Not just for those who believe but for all of us conscious monkey's sitting on the blue marble called earth. Some starving, some lonely, some tortured, and some acting like nothing is wrong. For all of us hoping, desperately praying that maybe this isn't all there is. That there is more than just a fading shadow staring back at us in the mirror. I ask this question What/Who is your hope in?/color]

There is more to be said a lot more. The love and nature of God, our nature. Trying to comprehend all this without discussing a hundred other things is like trying to eat steak with no teeth. Your more likely to gag and throw it all up, than get fed.

[Unnormal]

here's a good one

    "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers.  Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin.  There are no survivors to even tell what happened.  I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now!  Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.'  But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn."  So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations.  For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them.  All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy.  "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together.  My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.   (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)


The explanation is in the verse itself. First we have to make sure it is firmly established that the punishment for sin is death. God wiped out a number of ancient cities and people who did nothing but evil. They did every evil thing that they could set there minds to murder, theft, rape, false teaching ect. this wasn't a urban town full of blue collar workers and house wives. and God is the ultimate judge the only righteous judge. So he judged. God is not going to change wrong to right, or make evil acceptable. What would you have him do to stop evil?
So WHY did he do it? Surely they will have reverence for me now!  Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.
He did it for the benefit of the people. That those willing would come to repentance! Not for fun. Not because he was bored, and not because he didn't love them. But, because of his love for them he punished evil that they might acknowledge HIM/truth/morality/God and not have to suffer eternal judgment.

The verse prior to this one talk about how patient he was. Verse 5
 The LORD within her is righteous;
       he does no wrong.
       Morning by morning he dispenses his justice,
       and every new day he does not fail,
       yet the unrighteous know no shame.
He patiently judge the guilty, so that the others would see what was going on and stop their evil! He didn't simply wipe out anyone because of a few sinners. He was patient that they might come to repentance. But when not one man would accept correction he judged them all.

Just for fun: If you were not even a good person but just a regular guy, and you lived in this city/nation whatever a slum of evil. People sacrificing children, murdering, raping, stealing, pedophilia ect.. what would you like to see happen? That is my question for you, and I think it deserves an answer.

I'll go ahead and stop for tonight, it is getting late and I got school at 9am. But, there is a lot more I want to talk about and I'm sure with all the stuff I have posted tonight you'll have some pretty significant reservations and objections. One thing I want to talk about though, we got off on a much more theological discussion which is great! But at the same time there was a lot more I wanted to talk about scientifically, about existence and creation. The young earth and all of that. I have a theory that I want to share and I think it will be fun to talk about and interesting even to all the people who don't want to talk about God and beliefs. I'll throw that out there Friday since I'll be in school then work tomorrow form 8am-11pm. I just want to say I'm really really enjoying all this, and I hope at least a few other people are too. Even if we never agree on a single thing, it is such a growing experienced for anyone to have their belief system challenged. 

[Nightstalker]

You see this as a test for God,

Essentially what Unno means to say:

"Healing come by faith"

"Healing come by faith"

"Well bitch, healing come by faith!"

I think the fair reverend can say it better than myself. Fast forward to 1:28 as a woman is inquiring if he is going to heal the diseases.

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Unno comes in the name of Jesus.. You can't top that bitch!

[Unnormal]

LMAO! haha thanks Night

P.S. Rev X is the antithesis of a Christian, Thats why it is funny but at the same time that man needs Jesus.

[thrun]

ok, so we agree that faith healing is bullshit then?  That God doesn't actually heal anyone ever? That the healing offered is just an allegory for our reward in heaven?  That is the point of the amputee question. Spontaneous regrowth of a limb is a quantifiable case that can't be attributed to a doctor, natural cause, and or dumb luck.

Why would your church have a lighting rod now when your religion fought so hard against them in the 1800's?
Could it be that the way your infallible holy book was interpreted might be a wee bit off? Could it be that the book isn't infallible?  Natural phenomenon have natural causes and solutions.  

Finaly the answer I have been trying to beat out of you, your god will hand down eternal tourment if I don't kiss his ass. No matter how much I strive to be a decent person, no matter how much I help the least of his creation, if I don't sing his praises he will see to it that I suffer pain unending.  How is this not a threat of violence?  

As far as your bible verse, I have a hard time believing that the children (let's say 7 and under) of any of these nations were physically capable of rape or murder.  MAYBE murder if you had a pack of the rug rats armed to the teeth nipping at your heals. So whatever your god's motives were, your god is perfectly willing to slaughter legions of children to prove a point.   And that point seems to be, you must kiss my ass or I will burn you.  

As for your question, it's an interesting one.  There have been plenty of cultures through out the history of man were human sacrifice and infanticide were acceptable, as well as rape being viewed as acceptable at least when committed by a husband against a wife.  Were the average Joes in these places horrible people?  Where they just taught that that is the way things are and didn't bother to question?  I don't know.   This does show to me at least, that morality is a social construct and always changing.  There is no absolute morality.  Hell look at moral behavior from the 50's and compare it to moral behavior of today.  

I can answer it from what it would mean for me, if I were suddenly living in one of these cultures I'd probably be dead inside of a week.   What would I like to see happen?  For the people of the nations to stop and think about the golden rule.  





edit:

You know, I was going to let the hope thing slide but the more I think about it is to ridiculous for me to let pass. In order for me to blame god for any problems, I would have to believe he existed.  So I don't blame god for anything.  

I don't care if people want to believe in a god, I really really don't.  But to argue that a godless existence is some how hopeless or that a person's inability to cope with tragedy is a sound argument for adopting religion is ridiculous.  I have friends, family and loved ones that have been besieged by tragedy.  I am sure we all have.  And no where do I need to turn to god for hope.  My hope is that my friends will have a good life and i will see them again and again, and for those that have died I have the fond memories of them to think back on.  When shit hits the fan, and I get sad I turn to one of the people around me and get a hug, share a laugh or cry over a beer.  To call a life full of friends and loved ones hopeless is ridiculous.

For the cancer patient, the amputee, and anyone else dying there is hope and trust that their Doctor is doing what is best for them.  Either easing their pain, or hopefully fixing it.  One hand working will always do more for a person then two hands folded in prayer.  

[thrun]

LMAO! haha thanks Night

P.S. Rev X is the antithesis of a Christian, Thats why it is funny but at the same time that man needs Jesus.

Stop placing judgement on the calling Jesus put on Rev X's life, that is not for you to do. 

[Aldoran]

My wife's cousin burned her seven month old baby in his crib.
Link

Little Wayne lived for twenty days blind, burned over his most of body. his hands and legs were amputated, his eyes and ears burned from his head. He looked like charred meat with a mouth.

He suffered horribly for nearly three weeks, every movement was enough to make him scream, even over the effect of the drugs.

Maybe his faith wasn't strong enough?

maybe if he believed a little harder?

Maybe he needed to suffer so he's be right with god when Jesus finally let him into heaven?

Maybe this life is for suffering and Wayne was just a good seven month old Christian?

Save your God wants us to know suffering bullshit for someone who didn't see things like this. If your faith is strong enough to ignore reality, fine, but don't ever say "suffering is what god wants" or "god knows you'll suffer and he wants it that way".

If your God exists and knows exactly suffering will be, and yet does nothing for this baby or the millions upon millions of others suffering similarly, Your god is an evil being and should be held accountable for every one of the screams he has caused.

It's better to acknowledge that this is a harsh and godless universe, that cause and effect make our world, and to accept that the actions of a disturbed and evil bitch caused her baby to lie in agony for three weeks before he finally died.

[Reddawn]

ok it's perfectly fucking clear that you faggots will talk about this til the end of days and never change your stance on it....so please.....enough already. You are all geniuses. Congratulations.

[thrun]

ok it's perfectly fucking clear that you faggots will talk about this til the end of days and never change your stance on it....so please.....enough already. You are all geniuses. Congratulations.

You could just stop reading the thread, or if it really bothers you that much delete it.  I enjoy this stuff, I wasn't kidding when I said Christian apologetics is a hobby of mine.  I've been to the creationism museum. 

[Reddawn]

Gee thanks fuckface what wonderful advice....yes I can quit reading the thread really easily. The reason I say this shit should stop is while it might be hysterical to you someone else might take it the wrong way. I really like the community we have and don't want to lose a member/members because you think you are really clever.

I guess it's time for the trolling forum to come about.

[thrun]

Set your purse down and count to 5 Allice,  or at least stop with the black power jokes in your Avatar if you are worried about hurting people's feelings. 

[Reddawn]

better?

[thrun]

Lock it up if it really pisses you off that much, or delete it.  Either way this is my last post in the thread.