Swearing an Oath

[thrun]

I think it would be beyond Irony that a series of random events and mutations ended up with conscious beings that demand to know where they came from and why instead of being driven by only instinct.

It's not random.   It's cause and effect.  

1. it has to answer all the big questions in life (and after life given the belief)
2. It has to bear good fruit. a.k.a. what are the results of the belief system.
3. It has to correspond to reality, not just scientific but what you know to be true from your own existence.
4. It shouldn't hinder others in searching for truth / declare anyone who doesn't believe like they do needs to die.
5. Any prophecies of the future have to be fulfilled. (not that all prophecy has been fulfilled but the track record so to speak.)

While I think your belief structure fails it's own test on points 1,2, 3 and 5 (or at least doesn't do any better then the others)  I will focus on 4.

How is the threat of eternal damnation not hindering my own belief system, or equivalent of the threat of death?

these two points still need addressed as well
1. Why doesn't god heal amputees?
2  Does your church have a lightning rod?


edit

The Vikings are still in the running for calling how life will end
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

Sorry forgot to answer this

I want you to answer a question for me. When you die one of two things are going to happen. You, as in your consciousness is going to either cease to exist or change. Both of which are incomprehensible in our physical state. Let me know what you believe is going to happen and why?

My answer is I have no fucking clue, and neither does anyone else.  Though I will say one of my favorite slogans is, "I won't give a shit,  I'll be dead"  any time the subject of what happens to my corpse comes up. 

[thrun]

thrun- God is OUR God...and this is where it fasinates me the most....we don't know the begining of Gods....
but, we have the potential to become Gods...
it is an eternal principle

You can believe whatever you want, and I am not questioning your right to do so.  The problem is that you have 0 proof of this assertion and I don't think it should be interjected in to conversations about existence as a result.  I'm pretty sure that's the primary point I have been arguing the entire time.  Believe what you want about what happens when you die, or the supernatural  just don't expect any one else to believe the same way or accept your beliefs since they are all faith based.  

And that the explanation of 'god did it' and 'because I said god can' or horrible, horrible explanations for anything.

edit,

Also, if people stop exchanging ideas with each other (call it an argument or a discussion) we stop learning and thinking. 

[Kastil]

Seriously, is there actual sex in softcore that they're just not showing us?  Or is that a harder quest to answer than "is the universe finite" or "is God real?"  You motherfuckers are reall good at selectively staying on topic.  Speaking of, if I declared my religion as Jedi, could I swear an oath on a Timothy Zahn novel?

The answer to your question Chow is no.  Most of it is obvious with the positioning of the orifices in relation to other orifices/protrusions but mostly its easy to tell from the soft bump and grinding you see with the softcore.  Can't have bump and grind in hardcore. You have to be able to see the wang going into something and that is just too much motion to be able to have selective camera angles.

[thrun]

The answer to your question Chow is no.  Most of it is obvious with the positioning of the orifices in relation to other orifices/protrusions but mostly its easy to tell from the soft bump and grinding you see with the softcore. 

Either that or the fact that that the dude is always eating out her belly button. 

[meowcow]

Actually the bible does say in at least a couple of places that anyone who doesnt believe as it says has to die.  Add that to the fact that the god of the Hebrews butchered the firstborn of an entire nation just to prove how big his dick was and lets just say he is not a god I would worship, even if he is the "One True God" he's a dick.  There are a number of places that the bible spews hate and intolerance, I know because as a child my parents made me read it, which is one of the biggest reason I am not nor ever will be a christian.

[thrun]

Actually the bible does say in at least a couple of places that anyone who doesnt believe as it says has to die.  Add that to the fact that the god of the Hebrews butchered the firstborn of an entire nation just to prove how big his dick was and lets just say he is not a god I would worship, even if he is the "One True God" he's a dick.  There are a number of places that the bible spews hate and intolerance, I know because as a child my parents made me read it, which is one of the biggest reason I am not nor ever will be a christian.

To be fair God allowed the Pharaoh to pick his own fate, and the reason that happened is because the Pharaoh said he was going to do it first.  

That being said, a truly loving and benevolent creator that is all powerful would have handled the situation differently in my opinion.  

Which brings me to the problem of evil, but that's just going to drag this thread out even farther.

[meowcow]

Actually every time Moses went to pharaoh he relented but then it says "god hardened pharaohs heart" so that means that god was trying to show how powerful he was by heaping more and more plagues on the Egyptians. That is only one incident in the bible though there are several more.

[Dammit Dan]

what she said

[Aldoran]

I want you to answer a question for me. When you die one of two things are going to happen. You, as in your consciousness is going to either cease to exist or change. Both of which are incomprehensible in our physical state. Let me know what you believe is going to happen and why?

Those two scenarios are both valid, and in all probability the first, Oblivion, is likely. I don't fear that, though. Nothingness also precludes knowledge of nothingness, so I won't be around to notice being dead. =)

The second and less likely scenario, transubstantiation, does not necessarily mean "go to heaven or hell" but would mean that life was not meaningless. It also would not prove a creator, though it would be a proof that we do not know everything about existence.  I would welcome something after death, and if after I get there someone officially says "the correct religion was... Seventh Day Adventist. Seventh day folks with me, everyone else, the bus to hell is waiting over there." Well, I suppose I'm boned.

I don't know what happens after death, I've never done it.


Unno, interestingly you've done the same thing every Christian I've talked to did. you ignored the comment about invisible magical men and brought up the fear topic, "what about when you die?". Many Christians concentrate on ignoring the basics (magic made the world) to keep up the argument of eternal reward vs torment. If there is no magical man, how could there be a soul, and therefore how could there be anything but terror waiting us at the end of life? The idea of oblivion is so frightening to so many people that they will accept a childrens story of elves and faeries before facing that fear?

Life after death is a great idea, it's comforting to think we didn't lose grandpa when he died, but he's waiting for us somewhere.  The problem comes when we let that comfort become a way of life. But that's my 2 copper.

[Nightstalker]

Jesus fucking christ I had almost forgotten why people call you Nighttroll.

Say what? I'm just here to facilitate stimulating conversation. Otherwise people are just typing letters.

And the question still stands - How are you willing to accept the notion of an infinite immeasurable space, but not the concept of an eteral creator or creation based process?

[thrun]

Jesus fucking christ I had almost forgotten why people call you Nighttroll.

Say what? I'm just here to facilitate stimulating conversation. Otherwise people are just typing letters.

And the question still stands - How are you willing to accept the notion of an infinite immeasurable space, but not the concept of an eteral creator or creation based process?

As soon as I find a note on the side of a planet that says,

"I did this!  xx's and oo's

-God"

I'll accept it.  

[thrun]

And to further elaborate on this, I view accepting a god as pointless because of Pascal's wager.  I know he originally intended it to do the opposite but since he didn't factor the other 1 billion gods/religions in to it his bets were a little off.  

So it's not that I am against accepting a god if given appropriate reason to do so, I'm just against selecting one arbitrarily as it seems pretty effing pointless.  


edit,

also most creationist arguments state that everything has to have a creator, except god.  Which is bullshit and goes back to the "well god did it because I said he can" crap.  But we are going to go back in circles if we keep discussing that over and over.

[Paul]

 
And that the explanation of 'god did it' and 'because The Bible said god can' are horrible, horrible explanations for anything.


Also, if people stop exchanging ideas with each other (call it an argument or a discussion) we stop learning and thinking. 

fixed

[Aldoran]

i don't think it is fair to accuse religion of that unless the specific religion promotes that. While some religions say its OK to kill under certain circumstances, (for instance if you leave the faith of Islam your likely to get your head sawed off BY YOUR OWN FAMILY).  Of course there is corruption in religions just like there is in EVERYTHING. No where in the bible does it "condone ignorance, intolerance, barbarism, xenophobia, and war for profit."

Specific religion? Religions do a lot that isn't in their holy book, my friend. For example:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Westburo baptist church. For them, God is an excuse for Bigotry, hate, and malice. They spread their hatred and bile to their children, and have picketed the funerals of servicemen who died in Iraq, chanting "Burn in hell, murderer" to their widows and children.

That's just one easy example, but here is another, slightly less psychotic example:
http://www.raptureready.com/faq/rap23.html
These kids hate Fags, Jews, Abortionists, Obama, Islam, Free speech, Witches, liberals, and some poor bastard named Benny Hinn. Oh, yeah, and Christmas trees. They hate fucking Christmas Trees!

would you prefer not existing? I've concluded that life is a gift, and choose to worship god out of free will. And "if you accept that "god " is real and that he created everything," i would say that god would be deserving of worship, wouldn't you?

I have no fear of not existing, and life may be a gift, but what does that giver want in exchange? If the answer is nothing, then why would the giver want your worship? Why would he care? Why would he give you a book saying "believe in me, accept me, and I'll get you into my dad's mansions" and you interpret this as "fall on your knees and prostrate your free will to me or else I'll fucking smack you!"?

Either god doesn't want worshiped, and you're wasting your time, or god does want worshiped and my previous comments apply, making him a petty deity unworthy of anything but contempt.

i also find it strange that you find that believing in a creator as being "illogical" as if we believed in god because were stupid idiots who caunt use aour stoopid idout braiins, considering you have no explanation yourself yet choose to try and defame creationist as being "fucking stupid."As Christians we do not blindly believe our faith, we have the bible which is testament to our faith, it is the repository of what we believe and why.

You have a book, and that book is all you need? Every answer in your universe comes from a book? Holy shit, that's easy. Why don't we all get books and make those the answer?

I pick the "Dungeons and Dragons" players guide. It answers all the questions, after I die I go to another plane where my god (Pelor, I want to be a good guy) is waiting. If the priests like me, they can cast the level 5 raise dead spell on my and I'll come back to life! I will work hard and maybe, just maybe, I can dual class into being a 5th level gamer, 1st level cleric and cast spells.

What? My book is just as valid as yours, it's bound paper and ink, and it's got pictures! If the idea of Pelor vs Baal sounds stupid, imagine the names changed to Jesus and Lucifer. If going to another plane sounds strange, just say heaven, and if dual classing sounds stupid, imagine it as becoming a preacher holding communion.

Stupidity is blind faith, and if you think I'm insulting you, you're wrong. I'm insulting the idea that any rational being will say "the bible said it, so it's true", hug their book, and ignore reality.

[Unnormal]

It's not random.   It's cause and effect.    Well said Thrun, everything physical has a cause and effect. So then you can not possibly believe in naturalism. And there for must acknowledge that our existence had some cause as well as all genetic information, conciseness ect.. must have some cause. This goes back to what I said about hypothetically, what you would want to look for in a cause to our physical universe. metaphysical, all powerful, hyper intellectual.




While I think your belief structure fails it's own test on points 1,2, 3 and 5 (or at least doesn't do any better then the others)  I will focus on 4.
lol, well your entitled to your opinion however misguided. I think that if you were to look into these points especially 5, you would find otherwise.

How is the threat of eternal damnation not hindering my own belief system, or equivalent of the threat of death?
The Bible doesn't say to hinder "lost" people quite the opposite. Lead them to Christ by example and how you treat them. As far as the threat of damnation.. Hell is separation from God. "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Rev 22:12 God is just he is not going to simply say into the lake of fire you go. He is going to justly judge everyman according to what he has done. There will be different levels of judgment. The truth is though that I, you and everyone is guilty of sin. God can not and will not tolerate sin. Therefore, sin separates us from God. It isn't a "threat" your free to believe whatever you want to believe. But, to be in the presence of God you must be free of sin and there is only one way to be forgiven... and it is free of charge you just have to be willing accept it.

I have no fucking clue, and neither does anyone else.  Though I will say one of my favorite slogans is, "I won't give a shit,  I'll be dead"

Hehe I like this but perhaps more eloquently put by one of my favorite atheist quote Blaise Pascal.
"I know not who put me into the world, nor what the world is, nor what I myself am. I am in terrible ignorance of everything. I know not what my body is, nor my senses, nor my soul, not even that part of me which thinks what I say, which reflects on all and on itself, and knows itself no more than the rest. I see those frightful spaces of the universe which surround me, and I find myself tied to one corner of this vast expanse, without knowing why I am put in this place rather than in another, nor why the short time which is given me to live is assigned to me at this point rather than at another of the whole eternity which was before me or which shall come after me. I see nothing but infinites on all sides, which surround me as an atom and as a shadow which endures only for an instant and returns no more. All I know is that I must soon die, but what I know least is this very death which I cannot escape.

"As I know not whence I come, so I know not whither I go. I know only that, in leaving this world, I fall for ever either into annihilations or into the hands of an angry God, without knowing to which of these two states I shall be for ever assigned. Such is my state, full of weakness and uncertainty. And from all this I conclude that I ought to spend all the days of my life without caring to inquire into what must happen to me. Perhaps I might find some solution to my doubts, but I will not take the trouble, nor take a step to seek it; and after treating with scorn those who are concerned with this care, I will go without foresight and without fear to try the great event, and let myself be led carelessly to death, uncertain of the eternity of my future state."


This is unfortunately the view of many today. Rejecting their very nature and existence, to ask the question of why.

P.S. I promise Ill get to those questions, and elaborate on a few answers. You also asked if I believe in a "young" earth. Well yes I do younger than contemporary knowledge would suggest. I'll tell you why if I have time tonight after work.

P.S.S. just read your new post. I agree with you Pascal wager is a joke IMO.