Swearing an Oath

[thrun]

My Holy Trinity: Amplification, distortion and down-tuned guitars. Believing in anything else just makes you a faggot in my book.

The Sunn Model T, Electro Harmonix, and Les Paul be praised!

[gr0n]

  It all makes sense, really, if you step back and look at the big picture.  I think we're missing the forest for the trees here (or maybe I'm just somewhat impartial and not blinded/brainwashed by one side or the other).

If you look back at the big picture they meet too entirely different needs, and aren't comparable in the slightest.  Science gives us a way to understand the world around us and make life better.  I don't go to a biologist for philosophical questions, unless they happen to be hella smart and just happen to know about such things. 

Religion provides unity and comfort for people that need it making their lives better.   But it offers no explanations of why things work the way they do, and trying to inject it in to a place where it has nothing relevant to say only slows down progress. 

They're variations on a theme.  Science uses observation and logic to explain the universe.  Religion in almost every case is a story explaining the universe, with the added theme of an ethical dogma.  I never said religion explained how things work, just how they came to be.

Some would argue that religion makes their lives better as well, and is a blueprint explaining how they should live their life.  Science can provide you with the same answers if you do the research.  Therefore I consider them to be quite comparable.

[thrun]

I'm not arguing the point that religion makes some people's lives better, if you look at what you quoted me on I even stated that.  Though I do think telling children that they are sinners and going to burn in a lake of fire if they don't meet certain requirements is a form of child abuse.  Unintentional, but still unhealthy. 

The answers that religion offers to the origin of the universe and other natural phenomena are worthless, since they are all allegories.   Think of all the things that were once attributed to gods; things like the wind, plagues, the motion of the skies at night.  If we had continued to look to superstition to answer these questions were would our species be today?

Saying that this is how weather works, because god wanted it to work that way only adds a layer of complexity to an already complex system.  If we had a way to show a god doing it, by all means add one in. Until such a time as that happens though it does nothing to further our understanding or help.   

I'm a huge fan of all the things we have around us to help our lives; agriculture, medicine, modern machinery, ect.  None of these things came from a religious book.  They came from observation and applying sound methods to the problem at hand. 

[Nightstalker]

I'm a huge fan of all the things we have around us to help our lives; agriculture, medicine, modern machinery, ect.  None of these things came from a religious book.  They came from observation and applying sound methods to the problem at hand. 

You should realize though that many of such advances in technology and science have come about from folks with faith based principles, and in some cases have even been as a direct result of faith based concepts, such as again, Lemaitre's concept of Big Bang, and his search for creationist based universal beginning.

[thrun]

I'm a huge fan of all the things we have around us to help our lives; agriculture, medicine, modern machinery, ect.  None of these things came from a religious book.  They came from observation and applying sound methods to the problem at hand.  

You should realize though that many of such advances in technology and science have come about from folks with faith based principles, and in some cases have even been as a direct result of faith based concepts, such as again, Lemaitre's concept of Big Bang, and his search for creationist based universal beginning.

That's because a large chunk of the world is religious, personal faith doesn't discredit their contributions.   It also isn't the cause of their contributions.  These were people that were willing to take the time to look for an answer to a problem.  And in doing so they backed god as a cause back further and further in to gaps.   If the trend continues, more gaps will close and eventually there will be nothing left to atribute to a god.

I don't see that actually happening though, in reality since the universe is infinite and humanity is finite.  

edit**

Also to give credit where it is due

For some of it's backwards traditions the Vatican has mostly been, form my understanding, and currently is very pro science.  I was raised Catholic and we were never taught to take the bible literally or to look for it to an answer to how things work.  It was supposed to be a moral and spiritual guide.  

[gr0n]

Thrun I think we agree more than you are giving me credit for.  I'm not here to debate you.  That's Nightstalker's job.

Please proceed...I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.

[thrun]

Thrun I think we agree more than you are giving me credit for.  I'm not here to debate you.  That's Nightstalker's job.

Please proceed...I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.

I'm an argumentative son of a bitch, and this is one of the subjects that gets the blood most riled up for me.  :-) 

[Nightstalker]

I don't see that actually happening though, in reality since the universe is infinite

Er, where did you go to school where they taught you that the universe is infinite?


I hope you aren't seriously going to strut around points in a debate with information like that.

Thrun I think we agree more than you are giving me credit for.  I'm not here to debate you.

Yes he is.

Atheists always tend to get huffy and puffy when it comes to this, and they take it as opportunity to lash out at anyone. Even if theres only slight disagreement.

Kind of funny really

That's Nightstalker's job.

Please proceed...I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.

lmao. I've been largly spectating this conversation as well, as its been between thrun and unno.

Shame on you sir, for trying to tarnish my good southernly gentlemenship, and trying to incite denegration towards the south with these boastrous accusations

[thrun]

Er, where did you go to school where they taught you that the universe is infinite?

The universe may or may not be infinite.  So I should have put, "for all intensive purposes infinite" or that the Universe has no boundary. 

[thrun]

Theists always tend to get huffy and puffy when it comes to this, and they take it as opportunity to lash out at anyone. Even if theres only slight disagreement.

Kind of funny really

Fixed!

[Aldoran]

I'm throwing in with Thrun on this one.

WARNING!
Do NOT read if you are an offendable sort, easily angered, or if you'll be mad at me insulting god in general. This is not an attack on anyone, please do not consider it to be aimed at anyone in particular.

Religion is the single greatest threat to humanity we've ever come up with. It has been used as a tool of manipulation, excuse for bigotry and hate, and rallying point for the attempted extermination of huge sectors of the human population. People have used religion to condone ignorance, intolerance, barbarism, xenophobia, and war for profit, and that's just what I've seen this year.

Religion, while it may provide shallow comfort to the old or weak, is an abomination that has hindered humanity and caused uncounted hardships and unimaginable horror.

But this isn't about religion, it's about the root of all that, the big man, the (al)mighty G.O.D.

For me it comes down to a choice.

Do I believe in a magic invisible <insert description here> that exists because it always has and always will (don't ask, you cannot understand these things, it's REAL, damn you!), and do I believe this magic being blinked, sneezed, willed, or otherwise poofed the entire universe into existence?

OR

Do I believe that Science is working on the issue, the universe is  believed to be about 14.5 billion years old (and that number is  is subject to change with no bias) and the best idea right now is it all began in a "big bang", but we're still open to debate?

Hmm, Magic man because a book or books told me so vs rational assessment and "I don't know" as an acceptable answer. Guess which I pick?

The idea of a magic man/turtle/spaghetti poofing, sneezing, or noodling this universe into being is, frankly, fucking stupid.

Teaching your children that an invisible man is watching and will burn them if they don't follow the rules is most definitely abuse.


What really gets me is the attitude of the christian, "worshiping god" as they do.

It takes a certain degree of faith to defy logic, but damn, people, think about it.

Even if you accept that "god" is real and that "god" created everything, you still have to question WHY these things are, and then question WHY worship this being.

Imagine an omnipotent being, omniscient and glorious. This being poofs the entire universe into being on the first day, then sets about creating fish, strawberries, and men.

Day 7, look what I made.

Day 8, this omnipotent, omniscient, loving creator of all things says to the fragile, beautiful, SENTIENT beings he has made "Yo! WORSHIP ME OR FRY!"

WTF? What type of egomaniac dick would create an intelligent, sentient species with the one intention of having them worship him? Worse, what kind of degenerate deity would deliver these sentients into immortality upon their deaths, only to condemn those who didn't follow orders and worship him* into eternal torment?


 I'm sorry, if your god is so insecure that he needs his D-Peen** stroked by millions of terrified beings, I'm not sure I can worship that.




I prefer to accept that there are mysteries I do not yet know, rather than the illogical and horrible ideas presented by a creator.



*Accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and get into heaven, otherwise BURN IN HELL ABOMINATIONS!

**Contraction of Deific and Penis

[Nightstalker]

Yet another person that judges the idea of creation or creator on the concepts of religions.


Zidane is not impressed.

[thrun]

Zidane is not impressed.

The flying spaghetti monster is though.  All praise his noodly appendage!

[Nightstalker]

The flying spaghetti monster is though.  All praise his noodly appendage!

I wonder if he was taught or teaches that the universe is infinite as well

[Kastil]

I'm an argumentative son of a bitch, and this is one of the subjects that gets the blood most riled up for me.  :-) 

The other is Jam Bands.  Fucking Jam bands.