Wolverines

I have a question for everyone.  We were talking and somehow we started talking about when you have to swear an oath we use a bible.  What if you are of a different faith?  Do that make islamic terrorists use a bible?

They say swear or afirm now.

I'm pretty sure the towelheads get their own version of the "paper stack of  lies".

Just saying.

I never thought Id' say this, but +1 

Just gotta raise your right hand now.

how about raise a finger can be on the right hand

Heh, well on the same Token I'm not atheist, and believe in God, so you'll have to throw a smite as well.


It's just historical knowledge that the elite have used religion as mind control.

There might even have been a "Jesus" figure, though that has successfully mutilated via Roman interdiction - specifically via the Eastern Romans, in order to keep that region in stability.

Those Eastern Romans being largly Greek, they had a habit of adopting, and fusing Gods. Its no coincidence that Jesus' birth/death/resurrection is associated with exact dates of other Pagan Gods, such as Seth, and practice of Mithraism.

As far as an actual historical reference to a "Jesus", theres very little to go on. There were a good deal of notable historians around the time, Livy is one of them I recall. He is one of two that only made a vague reference of the term "Christ" to the area, which could have been related to many things.  Though in fairness, most historians especially Roman ones of the time wouldnt have given two shits about the goings-on in the, what was backwater area of the time, Judea.

We might have more introspection of an actual historical figure, by assessing the first council of Nicaea. This council was assembled to finally decide on what Jesus should be, and what should be reckognized as holy canon (political agendas). There was an Aryan priesthood that served at the time in that area, that would have been the inheritors of the most local knowledge on the figure. These folks presented their case at the council of Nicaea, that jesus was not son of God, though these priests did not represent the majority, and subsequently their stance was ousted.

Since their stance on the saviour was considered very contrary to what was accepted as canon, which was that christ was now son of God, these priests were rather moved into obscurity.

Sorry Unno :(

Oh, just sayin.

So let me get this straight then Night... believing as you do, yet knowing as much as you do, you still believe in God?

fixed.

Ahhh Night I love ya man.

Just couldnt make it to the 2nd paragraph.  I blame 70s and 80s TV on my complete lack of attention.

Oh look!

SHINY!

That is correct.

I know that man corrodes, manipulates, and corrupts for personal and political gains, though I also know that these corruptions are at most times based on source that is pure and factual.

Thats not to say that I am suggesting that a Jesus figure is real or not. Thats suggesting that what has come of religion today could have been on account of a genuine historical person or event, not necessarily what today portrays.

A jesus figure could have simply been a man that felt he was in tune with God, and never suggested he was actual son of God. He could have simply just been a man that said "love thy neighbor", and pointed out the corruption of the Jewish temples by the Romans.

Judea was rather a swing state at the time. Some folks were content to serve Romans, yet others would have longed for a time of return to independance. This populoust debate would have spanned all the way back hundreds of years, as they had been subject to the Ptolemaics and Seleucids.

Then could come along a guy that preached with an open heart to not be violent, and points out the corruption of the temple at the hands of the Romans (whiched pushed for the worship of their gods), and of course this wouldn't sit well with the Romans, and their loyalists, so they could have killed the guy, and viola - now they  have a good passionate martyr tale to tell about. Of course with the spreading of this man's teachings, it would have grabbed a foothold on influence in the region, and the Romans would in time learn not to fuck with them after a series of revolts.

Then enter the splitting the of the Roman Empire in 2 halves, and the Greeks retaining power at Byzantium. The Greeks being notoriously lax on religion would have essentially said "fuck it", and allowed them to retain their religions, since they wanted the region stable. It's even said that the image we have of Jesus today, is modelled from the visage of the statue of Zeus, which had resided in said temple.


As for going back specifically to topic, yes I believe after all of it. We had to start from something, the universe that is. Since the Big Bang had a starting point.

The funniest thing is that many aetheists cite the Big Bang to refute theologans and christians against such notions as the young earth idea, and other religion related stances, yet they don't realize that citing the Big Bang, they are citing and affirming the work and studies of a Catholic priest - Lemaitre.

It took a priest, with an affirmed stance of creationism, along with a few others who later moved to support him, to bring us the accepted model of universal creation that we have today. He even presented his model to Einstein, which said "your math is correct, but your physics are flawed" or along such lines IIRC. Einstein supported a perpetual universe which was ironic since Lemaitre used Einstein's relativity model to come to the conclusion of Big Bang.

So.. Thats the accepted model today. And since the model suggests that 1. the bang came from a finite point, and that 2. it is still expanding, and that 3. the universe does have defined shape then:

A. The universe is an Isolated system. Scientifically the only Isolated system we know.
This is accepted science, and this suggests that there is nothing outside of our universe or else the notion that it is truely and isolated system is false.

And

B. The universe was formally at a finite point as is suggested by the Big Bang model. The notion that the universe created itself is obviously stupid, just as suggesting to someone that a vehicle just magically appeared in your driveway. So then what started the process of the Big Bang?


Now. With that question in mind you must come to question two things: Is time relevant to the creation of the universe?

If it is, then that is suggesting that this machine the universe, had to have started by a process or perhaps a being to which time and space do not apply.

If it is not, then that is suggesting that the finite point, which was the origin point of the Big Bang, existed as a finite point for some time.

This would mean, that taking into fact that since the universe is an isolated system, and the finite point of the BB existed on a timescale, this would then make that point formally a perpetual motion machine.

Since law of conservation of energy states that the total amount of energy in a closed system (or isolated system in case of universe) remains constant, then the isolated finite point that was the big bang could not have started the process on it's own without outside influence.

Laymens terms - If you put a ball in a cup, and leave it there without outside influences (time, gravity, wind etc.), theres no way in hell the ball can leave the cup.


This would then mean that a motion influenced the creation of the universe. This can be the case for a creator.

The alternative is that the universe is in fact not an isolated system, but rather a separate or contained system within another system. This means to suggest a notion such as a universe within a universe.

However that science being, this would mean that the fundamental properties which apply to this system or universe, should then apply to its host universe... time, space, matter etc.

This means that no matter how far you trace back the universe within a universe theory, all systems are homogenous, and time/space considering, would lead to an eventual point.

God.

 

I only google for porn.

History I keep stored away in a special lockbox inside my noggin :)

Hawkes.  All I can say is, "You asked."

Segnam, your book look like the yella pages.

Can someone index that post for me so I can sip down to the reptoids?

Don't apologize to me night I welcome any opportunity to talk about what I believe, because this isn't about opposing theology or conflicting view points on how we see Jesus. This is about your life. It is about more than what you do in your free time, what you have decided your purpose is, what life is all about, and what love is.
There is a God and he loves you, in fact he loved you before you, even knew who you were. He is truth and he promised that if you ask it will be given to you, seek and you will find, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. All you have to do is ask. Look past what you have been told, and what evil men have done to distort the message of Christ. God is not a set of rules, he doesn't need your money and he isn't some distant being not paying attention you.
   It isn't just about the scientific facts and that the universe is finite and that it had to be created. It is about you.


You that have organs on your head that interpret 3.5x10-26%.(unimaginably small near closer to 0% than 1%) of electromagnetic wavelengths that you call sight. You that have ears that interpret vibrations of particles you call sound and music, vibrations that can cause an emotional response. We can't even begin to imagine the specificity and fine tuning to which we were built.

This isn't a troll post and I'm trying to keep it short. Because if you really want to know. If you really want to hear about what real life is all about. I would love to tell you. I honestly started to write about the historical Jesus, the documents and the historians outside of Christianity. An argument better put by one of my favorite quotes form an atheist.

"I know of no finding in archaeology that’s properly confirmed which is in opposition to the Scriptures. The Bible is the most accurate history textbook the world has ever seen." - Dr Clifford Wilson, formerly director of the Australian Institute of Archaeology

As I was writing and thinking it dawned on me, that it isn't about that. It isn't about trying to argue historically or scientifically about God. It is about your life, and if you want to seek the truth.

So, Segnam have we told you the answer you've been looking for yet?  :D

good Lord.

lmao

Alright man I'll drop some science on you. What you say is correct about the council of Nicaea, and we could discuss all day how Constantine the birth of the modern Catholic Church, uses pagan rituals, practices pagan holidays and uses pagan symbols and how the "church" was used to unite for political purposes and from that point forward persecute all who would go up against it, including Christians! But that is not Christianity.
   Where you wrong is how that pertained to Jesus. The council of Nicaea first meeting was in 325AD. That is hundreds of years after Christ, and hundreds of years after the books of the bible were written, and after Christianity and the message of Christ was spreading throughout the world. There first meeting was to discuss what we call today the trinity. Not if he was the son of God, but if Jesus and God the father and holy spirit were parts of the same person.
     If you look into the documentary evidence for the Bible it far outweighs any other text of the time/all time making it the most reliable, most accurate, and most corroborated book in history. AT the time of course a medium in which to write anything on was extremely rare and made by hand. Yet we have 5,664 (which is unpresidented) manuscripts from the Greek alone. In addition there are thousands of other ancient New Testament manuscriptsin all about 24,000.
   The quantity of New Testament material is embarrassing in comparison to any other manuscript work. The closest Homer's Iliad which was the ancient Greek "Bible" that has less than 650 manuscripts. Yet when you read it in school no one would dare call its authenticity into question.
    The theory that Jesus did not exist as a historical figure is dead as a serious academic position.

Uh, that has everything to do with Jesus.

Clearly even only a few hundred years after the writings on "Jesus" (just 175 years for some estimates), there was already controversy on the figure. Thus the Council of Nicaea was convened and men decided what was the word of God, and what was not. That must be nice to have that authority.

Bishops voted on the total sum of works on the matter, and the emperor used his position to push political leanings into the process. Of that which was discarded, was the stance that "Jesus" was not eternal, and that the father was greater than he.

If that has nothing to do with Jesus I dont know what does.

The result being with the practice of Arianism at the time, this could have meant that people would not have been "saved" by Jesus, but rather they would have honored thy father. Arianism was very popular in the area around Egypt and Judea, which were the foundation of such teachings, and really a case can be made that this stance was not adopted as canon, is because it was not the stance, nor in benefit of the emperor.

And after this council was convened, the practicioners of Arianism were then branded as heretics.

So as a result of this council, which is one among many, Jesus, essentially a messenger of God which would have told the people "Not me, it's all about God", Had subsequently turned into super Jesus. Now he had extra powers and was eternal, and was one with God, as opposed to being of God.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure this council was about Jesus. If it had leaned the other way, we wouldn't have "Jesus freaks" we do today.


Seriously, dont make me go there.


What? Which time are you referring? You do realize Papyrus was in use prior to 300 B.C. and after 300 B.C. parchment codices were used, and it wasnt hard at all.

I dunno what exactly you are trying to suggest, that folks didnt write stuff down then, or they chisled it into stone or something.

Alexander captured Egypt among other places in the region, and the successor to that region Ptolemy, set to put work into building the grandest, most comprehensive learning center in the world, the Great Library centuries before Jesus. Conservative estimates for just individual works alone are numbered in the tens of thousands, with estimates of 400,000 - 1 million scrolls hosted there in it's prime. The Ptolemaic empire had the monopoly on Papyrus, which made it easy for them to scribe a great number of works.


I really don't know what this is supposed to contribute the argument. It goes back to affirmation on my prior point about Alexander's successor's having the monopoly on Papyrus and other materials used in writing. When the Romans took ownership of Egypt, which would have been during the scribing of works of Jesus, they didnt just decide to stop monopolizing the trade, or discontinue learning and writing.



Unno I love you man, but now you are just talking out of your ass  :P

The Iliad was never revered as canon or fictional work. It was only recently that after the discovery of what most proclaim as actual Troy, did anyone consider to take any of it as serious. Even the historical figure "Homer" is seen as dubious by scholars today.

C'mon

"Had subsequently turned into super Jesus. Now he had extra powers and was eternal, and was one with God, as opposed to being of God."

Arianism that I'm only slightly familiar with, believed in Jesus. Believed in his miracles and his testimony. Once again they had doubts about the "trinity". They even quote scripture (that they believed in) as some of there proof. That Jesus and God were two separate entities. Arianism was not an argument against Jesus or his existence just about his relationship with the father.


"Seriously, dont make me go there."

Why not Night? Take the New testament, find me a passage that doesn't correspond with what, archeology, history, geography,  rulers of the times, the location and size of cities. Archeologist use it in a text book format for excavating ancient middle eastern cities. 

"What? Which time are you referring? You do realize Papyrus was in use prior to 300 B.C. and after 300 B.C. parchment codices were used, and it wasnt hard at all."

parchment/papyrus were rare in that they were kept by governments and temples for important information. We don't find scrolls that were letters from commoners or journals of individuals because, the written word was rare and repetition of it was even more rare.  A temple of the time might have one scroll with a copy of a few books of the New Testament. Hand copied. You will not find anything that matches it. Period. That goes along with the library of Alexandria. Which was a catastrophic historical loss. Your acting as if these documents were handed down form generation to generation and thats why we have so many. Thats just not true were discovering them constantly through out the ancient world. I'll say it again the Bible then and the Bible now are the most, accurate, corroborated and reliable pieces of ancient history we have.

My point with the Iliad, was that we know the Greeks were polytheist, that worshiped many of the God's written about in the Iliad and the Odyssey. That is historical fact confermined by archeology. Yet we have so few found wittings of the stories, where with scripture we have ten's of thousands that confirm each other.

Christ almighty...

Preach

Yes, and then some. Lol.

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but the question remains then what started God?  And what Started the starter of God?


And this question goes to anyone who wants to answer

If you believe in God, which one and why not the others?

Swear on this:

http://zogg.ytmnd.com/

DO NOT FAIL YOUR SPECIES

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but the question remains then what started God?  And what Started the starter of God?


And this question goes to anyone who wants to answer

If you believe in God, which one and why not the others?




God is Eternal he has no beginning and no end. Our inability to comprehend eternity as finite beings is not an argument against God. To say we have a beginning and an end, so everything else in the universe must have also would be the height of arrogance. That stems from the thinking that we are the best the cosmos has to offer. The concept of eternity or infinity is even applicable to mathematics and perhaps the best way to comprehend it.

I personally believe in the one true God. Truth- That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence. Absolute truth is in essence the bases for morality, that basis always has been an always will be the truth of God. You will find no such truth the world over. A belief system that answers every big question in life in a way that corresponds to reality. Muslims are hoping to ravage twelve virgins when they die. Hindu's say not to be angry at anyone karma will pay them back in the next life, which is impossible knowing that the universe is finite. Buddhists the idea of Nirvana, to in essence free yourself from consciousness and suffering. Then you have the Jews/Christians who's idea of religion is to have a relationship with God who created and loves us, and our ultimate destination is to be with God.  
Now just for fun Thrun pretend there is a God who created all things, All powerful, all knowing. Which of those or any other belief system that exist now or ever has existed sounds like truth to you. It si a simplistic description, and I'm not demining there faiths but none of them ring true to me or correspond with reality IMO.

I'm not sure if you noticed but I haven't always been a Jesus Freak as Night so eloquently put it. But I have always been on a search for truth, and I found it. I submit to you that there is not one question of morality, spirituality, or applicable sociology that can't be answered with scripture.  

...

the God of islam, judeaism and christianity are all the same god.

That is true of Judaism and Christianity. Islam however is very very different. They claim to believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus to some extent. But, they claim that all scripture is tainted and ruined and so they can only believe the writings of  muhammed and what scripture he said is true. The beginnings of Islam, and it's personal/political purpose in the person of Muhammed is pretty interesting. But don't mistake the the teachings of the Koran to coincide with the Bible because the simply don't. And their idea of Allah is very different from the God of the Bible.

Our isolated system, the universe, consisting of time and space, had to have been created by a being or event, or within a space to which time and space do not apply.

To go contrary to that, is to go against fundamental and logical mainstream science, the law of conservation of energy. The universe cannot appear from nothingness, or it's just as saying that a car appeared from nothingness on your driveway, or a concrete block just appeared on your floor. That's all crazy talk.



Why any of them?

Who tells you that God is an interventionalist? Man does

If all powerful God wanted you to know of his existence, why tell one, or a handful of humans, instead of everyone throughout time?

One should not let the idea of God be tainted by the corroding hands of man, through the exploitation of organized belief - religion.

1.  You keep talking about thermodynamics in a fashion that most creationist literature does, and I read a shit ton of it.   Talk origions gives a refutation and discusion of the argument in how I normally come crossed it.  We also have to remember the big bang is a discussion of what our universe has been doing since the beginning of time, not where the hell it came from.

With the car example, as the block I can go to the factories where both are made and see the process.  Where does this god keep it's universe factory?  From my understanding the concept of entropy doesn't apply to the concept of order in this fashion anyways.  

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html  

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html#firstlaw

The problem I have with you applying such laws in this case, is that prior to the big bang there's not a way to be sure (that I know, educate me otherwise if you do) that any of the forces or laws that govern this universe existed. And from my understanding we are fairly certain the 4 fundamental forces didn’t exist for the first few moments of the big bang.

Now if you are saying that they did, and that something had to cause this ordered universe we enjoy then that means that something had to cause the cause as well.  We can stretch that out to infinity, so it doesn’t seem to ad anything productive towards understanding existence.  


2.  Then what is the point of acknowledging or worshiping a god?

lol Thrun Im not trying to be rude but you are apparently missing the idea of God in that he is metaphysical and created a physical universe. You act as if somehow God is supposed to be a physical being, and subject to the same laws the universe is. What you said about the forces or laws that govern this universe not existing before creation, is in line exactly with what the Bible says is true. That physical properties of everything gravity, the speed of light, electro magnetics, and time! Were all created in fact many people in these fields for the longest time considered these properties unchangeable and constant. We come to find out that time it self is a physical property, effected by gravity and velocity. The same with the speed of light what they considered at one time to be constant.
   Which while that all makes interesting science, what that means is that all the variables that keep us alive today and make life possible are fine tuned to unimaginable specificity, that they could have and in fact our different outside of our realm of existence. You can see the engine, feel free to meet the designer.

2. If God is God then he is the only entity in existence worthy of worship, why would you not seek to acknowledge him when he so earnestly seeks after his creation.

fixed.

What about the 3 basic freedoms?

"the tangible reality of our everyday lives is really a kind of illusion, like a holographic image. Underlying it is a deeper order of existence, a vast and more primary level of reality that gives birth to all the objects and appearances of our physical world in much the same way that a piece of holographic film gives birth to a hologram."-quantum physicist David Bohm

1.  I am a physical being, living in a physical universe.  Metaphysics are meaningless until such time as I become a metaphysical being living in a metaphysical universe.  The "god can do it because i said he can" argument is about as retarded as it gets and not deserving of any resepct.  Either things have to have a creator or they don't, so if things had to have a creator who created the creator?

Actually, I am just going to cut out all discussion on the matter and say, The univese created itself becaues I said it can. I win.  


2. Which god is god?  I have a few thousand to choose from.  Where is proof of creation?

This is laughable, we have not found another spot yet where we could live besides earth.  If the universe was created to keep us alive why would so much of it kill us instantly?

For fuck sake, circumsision is proof we weren't designed?  Why would God give the hebrews a piece of skin that so offended him that he had them cut it off?

And on the subject of genitals, who the fuck puts the greatest playground ever next to a sewage system?  

Why do I breathe and eat out the same hole?  That's one of the worst design faults ever!  If I had seperate holes like a dolphin I couldn't choke to death on lunch.  


What does an apendix do besides try and kill people?  

Don't get me started on wisdom teeth.  

fast forward to the 9 minute mark. The 3 Basic Freedoms

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1.  I am a physical being, living in a physical universe.  Metaphysics are meaningless until such time as I become a metaphysical being living in a metaphysical universe.  The "god can do it because i said he can" argument is about as retarded.

We know physical beings can not create physical beings. We can play and manipulate, but you can not will something into existence/create, not one single cell. If you wanted to imagine outside of the realm of religion and come up with a being that could create a physical universe. He would have to be not physical, the very definition of metaphysical. Since we know physical beings can not create. He would have to be incomprehensibly intelligent, unimaginably powerful, he would transcend time and space. All of which are attributes described in the Bible.

As to which God is God I could go on and on about that, but look into it for yourself. If you seek the truth I have no doubt that you'll find it.

Proof of creation, while cosmology, physics, and of course history itself are great examples I would say the best would be microbiology and DNA/RNA along with that. I can only assume most atheist are naturalist so lets approach it from that point of view. When Darwin came up with his theory he thought cells were globes of protoplasm and nothing more. He even stated.

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
--Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

Honestly, I find creation vs. evolution debate boring. I'll be glad to let you know what I believe and why but, if someone wants to believe that randomness and natural selection created everything around them complex micro organisms, conciseness, ecosystems, genetic information etc. There welcome to it. I just don't see how that corresponds with reality, Darwinism isn't anything more than a theory of biology even if I wanted to believe it was true it doesn't answer the big question of how it all got started. Even one of evolutions biggest proponents Dawkins said:
"It could be that at some earlier time, somewhere in the universe, a civilization evolved by probably some kind of Darwinian means to a very, very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet. … And I suppose it's possible that you might find evidence for that if you look at the details of biochemistry, molecular biology, you might find a signature of some sort of designer."
Even he would accept intelligent design, as long as it is aliens and not God.

Circumcision was not getting rid of something that disgusted God it was proof of a covenant he made with Abraham. I think you might misunderstand the practice. After the coming of Christ it was no longer necessary.

The vestigial organ argument is one of ignorance. Evolutionist do this all the time, they find something they don't understand and try to immediately make it fit into their evolutionary plan or simply make it up. and end up looking foolish. E.G. Piltdown man, Nebraska man, Java man, Miller's recreation of the primordial soup, Haeckel's, embryos, archaeopteryx, ring any bells?... Soon to be added to the list vestigial organs. I could go on about the finer details of such things but to avoid this getting too long 'll let you read about it at your leisure.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=4C64C789-B80B-907C-0709333C8B90C1E4-appendix
As far as wisdom teeth go I haven't heard that argument before but I'll look into it, I know from personal experience that they suggest you don't get them removed unless they cause problems. As far as complications with molars being some kind of proof of Macroevolution I doubt it.

Metaphysics are  useless because I can make up a god at my leisure that can do anything it wants and you have no way to disprove it.   

Of course evolution doesn't answer the big question of how it got all started, it's not supposed to.  Just as the big bang is a theory about how space time expanded, it doesn't say where space time came from.  And for you to say "anything more then a theory" shows a ton of ingnorance on what a theory is. Either you are trolling at this point are you are just dumb.  Gravity is "only a theory"   The way elctricity works, "only a theory"

I never undersand why people quote darwin in a context of theological discusion, since he had little to say on the subject of religion from my understanding.   And even if he did, it doesn't matter because it would just be an appeal to authority which is meaningless.   As far as Darwin's understanding of the world 150 some odd years ago, it was much more limited then our understanding of the world today.  Surprise!  People learn more about the world as time goes on.   Whod' a thunk it?  Evolutionary theory today is far far removed from a lot of what Darwin said at the time because of that.

Also Quotemining is a form of lying, and if you are going to bring the bible in to the discusion I request you follow the 10 commandments.

Anything you listed in the side rant about pittdown man, can be answered here.  Most creationists are now refering their flock to this site to help them avoid looking even more retarded by using already refuted arguments.
http://www.talkorigins.org/

None of this really matters though, because you trying wildly poke wholes in the lexicon of human understanding does absolutely nothing to PROVE YOUR POINT.

So I ask again, where is this god?   Which GOD is it?  If I am to find a personal god by seeking Truth, then are you placing a 0 value on which God?  In that case, were it not to matter which god I choose why bother choosing?  I can't lose since every answer is correct.   

Dude, we totally need sharks teeth.

Just whenever they get old and shit we can pull them out to be replaced.

And, if history has shown me one thing. It's that gods rise and fall and the world still keeps on a ticking with out the dead ones.  

I forget why nobody has found anything that Jesus wrote himself.  What's up with that?  Didn't he have anyone to write to?

Also, this is an interesting site: http://www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm

So, is this going to become "THE Religion Thread" to go along with "THE Politics Thread?"

The Tao my main man and since the Tao is the great (capital N) Nothing it does not need to be started from anything.

fixed

Hats will conceal budding pineal antennae.

"Kleeklop" should be capitalized.  Jeesus, you want to offend the overlords or something?

Thrun if you don't want to talk about the massive shortcomings of belief systems that don't acknowledge at least the possibility of a creator, thats fine. You brought up "vestigial" organs, invoking evolution, invoking Darwin. That is why I mentioned it. As far as wildly poking holes in the lexicon of human understanding. I don't have to science has done it for me. To continually find out that everything we thought were constants are not. It turns out they all are just theories, exactly my point. We know so very little about reality, yet people claim the Christianians cling to a fictional idea of a God.

What do I have to gain from saying all this other than mocking and ridicule? I'm certainly not saying all this for my benefit. But to challenge belief systems to make sure that what you believe corresponds with reality. It isn't fun to have your beliefs challenged but as Martin Luther King Jr. once said, "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter."

So I ask again, where is this god?   Which GOD is it?  If I am to find a personal god by seeking Truth, then are you placing a 0 value on which God?

God is truth, seeking truth is to seek God. It is no accident that, what we know today about the balance of life on this planet, ecosystems, microbiology, neurology, cosmology, physics, archeology, sociology, history, oceanography ect.. conform to the Biblical account of creation and the state of man. There is no rival belief system that even scrapes the surface.

Now I know that no proof which I could give you could ever convert or change your mind. Only God can do that. But I will challenge what you believe and how it corresponds to reality. Perhaps better put by 2 Timothy 4:3:
" For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

I never said that I wouldn't acknowledge god, I just need proof and a god to acknowledge.  I'm not gambling my existence on hear say.

Again you talk about it not being an accident that there is a balance that supports life on this planet while ignoring the fact the thre rest of the known universe doesn't have such a balance.  So a creator made one planet in the middle of a vast un inhabitable desert - Parts of which that will eventually explode and destroy our oasis.    Your problem is you are viewing man as the center of the universe.  Get over yourself, gravity doesn't give a shit about you and is not here for your benefit.  

Science is supposed to poke holes in it, which is how the process works.  You take understanding and build upon it then revise anything that conflicts with the evidence.  

AHHHH so now we have a God, the triune god of our glorious nation.  

I have some serious questions about why we should worship that one, since he's new on the block compared to some of the other gods.   (even some that are still around)  Id' rather throw my lot in with Zoroastrianism.

How you can you say that the universe in it's present state confirms a 6 day creation of our planet and the universe, when we know that the universe is at least 14 billion years old and the earth is right around 4.5 billion?  

Which creation story is the right one?  Genesis gives two different accounts.  How are either of these accounts confirmed by our understanding of natural process any more then any other creation myth?  
Genesis 1:1-2:3
Genesis 2:4-25

Why doesn't god heal amputees? (An oldie but a goody)

Why is your God the Truth and not Odin or Allah?  I can quote from the Koran or Prose Edda if you'd like, they are holy books as well.  Why dont' you use either of them to define your beliefs?

Since humanity predates any texts or religions followng this god, what happened to his creation before they knew of his existance?  If he created us in his likeness and made this universe for us, why didn't he clue us in to him right off the bat?

I welcome this, since I have the same respect for reptoids that I do for religion. 

true true :)

I forget why nobody has found anything that Jesus wrote himself.  What's up with that?  Didn't he have anyone to write to?


Sorry I missed you gr0n, Jesus was  sent to Israeli to preach and teach to bring back the lost sheep. Israeli as God's chosen people being the lost sheep. His ministry was to them alone during this time. Though he talked about, and it was prophesied through out the old testament he would bring salvation to the Gentiles. His purpose while he was here was to save his people. He went through out the entire nation of Israeli both historically and biblically. There was no reason to write letters, as he was being followed and his message spread through out the region he wanted to effect, and actually went beyond that into other nations during that time. His ministry was only about three and a half years. Three in a half years which that in and of itself should be a testament to what occurred during that time, that he changed the world drastically in such a short period of time.

Now if part of that question is a way of asking how sure can we be that what was wrote about him was accurate as he didn't write it himself. We have the synoptic Gospels which based on how familiar you are with historical/biblical terminology. We have 4 accounts written directly about Jesus life and his teaching. The First 4 books of the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Written by different people at slightly different times after his death. This is a long answer to such a short question so I apologize. But, to make it short these accounts affirm on a number of different levels the accuracy and validity of the story of Christ.

So some softcore is on the tv, and I thought about Snacks and Kith, but then I thought of a question.  If the sex in softcore always simulated, or is there actual yet disguised penetration?  It usually looks pretty fake.  I was just wondering if there would be any reason for hardcore pornographers to not film everything to reach a different market.

Thrun it is interesting that you would use the inability to support life else ware in our massive massive galaxy as an argument against design instead of for it? Perhaps the fine tunning of our planet is not just random chance? Or of your implying that if God were God why wouldn't he create life everywhere? The Cosmos was created that we might see the work of his hand and know that he is the Lord. If you look into not just the unimaginable probability for us being here, but also our ability to observe the universe form where we sit in it is incredible. The number of things that had to happen for us to be able to see beyond our own little corner.

Zoroastrianism
Zarathustra, never assumed to be a prophet. He never claimed he had associated with God. He never ordered his followers to perform certain activities, but he recommended them to try to know the creator of the earth and heaven and adopt good manner, on the basis of their wisdom. Therefore, Zarathustra was neither a prophet, nor can one call his spiritual path a “religion,” in a narrow sense ,rather he was a thoughtful benevolent who recognized his God on the basis of his wisdom and never said he had been missioned to bring any message from God to human beings.
He was also born by best estimates between 1700 BC-1500 BC
The book of Genesis written between 1406BC-1446BC Chronicles genealogies and events back to around 2200B.C.
On that same token Genesis 1:1-2:3 and  2:4-25 don't contradict each other Genesis one gives a chronilogical account of creation and ch 2. talks about the events in detail.

Now as far as the age of the earth and the universe. The constant berating that Christians think the Earth is only 6,000-12,000 years old is simply propaganda. That is how long we have history of mankind. From the creation period to the Fall of man there is no timeline, from the fall of man to the flood there is no timeline, and from the flood to the erection of the tower of Babel there is no timeline. (bear in mind this is the building of the tower not the ruins around which the city of Babylon was built later.) These times and the events of the times had to have taken a long, long, long, time. Now as far as how old the universe is as well as our planet. I would like to show you a timeline.
http://www.google.com/search?q=history+of+how+long+scientist+have+thought+the+earth+has+existed&hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS326US327&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=49etSpaYGJO8MNWg6PIN&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11
That is a history of the diffrentiation of dates for which scientist have thought the earth existed and why. Interesting stuff, and we can talk more about this later.

As far as HIM cluing humanity off to his existence right of the bat, HE did. The Bible talks about in some detail the events that lead to man rejecting GOD. Humanity predates any religious text, that in no way indicates that they had no prior knowledge of GOD in fact the text itself chronicles those early years.

My typing fingers are getting tired and it is late so I'll stop here for now. I'm very much enjoying our discussion, but I would respectfully ask that you would try to get in a few less questions, per post so that I can answer them properly and perhaps you can retort with less confusions to anyone else wanting to read this, and maybe my reply's won't have to be so long.   ;D

God is a physical being....

also, about islam having a different god...well...
Islam was started by Abrahams first son, that he had with Sarah's maid.
When sarah had Isaac, Hagar (it think is her name) was sent away with her son.  His descendant became the first muslims........

also, the bible has a LOT missing from it, there were a lot of gospels left out that disagreed with the things decided on in Nycea.
it has also be retranslated and retranslated numorous times and many of the important things were lost.

Jesus and God are 2 distinct and seperate beings, but one in purpose.

an oldie but a goodie - God is the ultimate scientist.

also
Death is not the end. 

I actually have a shit ton of work to do this morning, it may extend in to the afternoon so you can take your time answering the other questions.   I have a few more after that, but their are two I need answered first

Are you actually saying that you believe in a young earth?

And are you saying that the bible is the literal word of god, and that everything stated in it is a litleral history of existance?

Ella, if God is a phyiscal being then he is subject to the same rules as any other physical being.  And per creationists all physical beings had to have a creator, so who created god?

edit


Bullshit, there is a fast growing group of fundamentalist christians that think jesus rode dinosaurs and that the earth is only as old as the bible.  
http://www.answersingenesis.org/

Time lines are fun Unno, did you know that up to the 1800's Lightning hitting your house was considered an act of God?  And that there was a huge religious push against lightning rods?

I'm not rejecting your right to believe in your God, or even the notion of a god.  I (and I think most people who have the same objections I do)  Don't accept the explanation of "god did it"  Because if we didn't reject  that explanation I'd still have to worry about my home getting burnt to the ground because of a lightning bolt.  That is why I say metaphysics is useless in a conversation about the natural world.  

Does your church have a lightning rod on it?

Why doesn't Jesus heal amputees?

Muslims are descended from him?--
(http://whiskeyfire.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/18/hagar.jpg)

Science and Religion meet the same human need of explaining the world around us.  Both are largely theoretical in nature and various aspects of both cannot (yet) be proven.  As a species we have an incessant desire to understand everything around us, so we make up stories as to why things are that way.  Some more elaborate than others, some based on observation and logic, some based on dogma, some based on a need to unite peoples.  It all makes sense, really, if you step back and look at the big picture.  I think we're missing the forest for the trees here (or maybe I'm just somewhat impartial and not blinded/brainwashed by one side or the other).

When it comes down to it, the debate between science and religion will never end as long as they both exist.  Just like politics.  Which is generally why in-game it's a good idea to not get into debates on either subject.  However, Carlos Mencia jokes are allowed.

-gr0n

If you look back at the big picture they meet too entirely different needs, and aren't comparable in the slightest.  Science gives us a way to understand the world around us and make life better.  I don't go to a biologist for philosophical questions, unless they happen to be hella smart and just happen to know about such things. 

Religion provides unity and comfort for people that need it making their lives better.   But it offers no explanations of why things work the way they do, and trying to inject it in to a place where it has nothing relevant to say only slows down progress. 

My Holy Trinity: Amplification, distortion and down-tuned guitars. Believing in anything else just makes you a faggot in my book.

The Sunn Model T, Electro Harmonix, and Les Paul be praised!

They're variations on a theme.  Science uses observation and logic to explain the universe.  Religion in almost every case is a story explaining the universe, with the added theme of an ethical dogma.  I never said religion explained how things work, just how they came to be.

Some would argue that religion makes their lives better as well, and is a blueprint explaining how they should live their life.  Science can provide you with the same answers if you do the research.  Therefore I consider them to be quite comparable.

I'm not arguing the point that religion makes some people's lives better, if you look at what you quoted me on I even stated that.  Though I do think telling children that they are sinners and going to burn in a lake of fire if they don't meet certain requirements is a form of child abuse.  Unintentional, but still unhealthy. 

The answers that religion offers to the origin of the universe and other natural phenomena are worthless, since they are all allegories.   Think of all the things that were once attributed to gods; things like the wind, plagues, the motion of the skies at night.  If we had continued to look to superstition to answer these questions were would our species be today?

Saying that this is how weather works, because god wanted it to work that way only adds a layer of complexity to an already complex system.  If we had a way to show a god doing it, by all means add one in. Until such a time as that happens though it does nothing to further our understanding or help.   

I'm a huge fan of all the things we have around us to help our lives; agriculture, medicine, modern machinery, ect.  None of these things came from a religious book.  They came from observation and applying sound methods to the problem at hand. 

You should realize though that many of such advances in technology and science have come about from folks with faith based principles, and in some cases have even been as a direct result of faith based concepts, such as again, Lemaitre's concept of Big Bang, and his search for creationist based universal beginning.

That's because a large chunk of the world is religious, personal faith doesn't discredit their contributions.   It also isn't the cause of their contributions.  These were people that were willing to take the time to look for an answer to a problem.  And in doing so they backed god as a cause back further and further in to gaps.   If the trend continues, more gaps will close and eventually there will be nothing left to atribute to a god.

I don't see that actually happening though, in reality since the universe is infinite and humanity is finite.  

edit**

Also to give credit where it is due

For some of it's backwards traditions the Vatican has mostly been, form my understanding, and currently is very pro science.  I was raised Catholic and we were never taught to take the bible literally or to look for it to an answer to how things work.  It was supposed to be a moral and spiritual guide.  

Thrun I think we agree more than you are giving me credit for.  I'm not here to debate you.  That's Nightstalker's job.

Please proceed...I'll continue to watch from the sidelines.

I'm an argumentative son of a bitch, and this is one of the subjects that gets the blood most riled up for me.  :-) 

Er, where did you go to school where they taught you that the universe is infinite?


I hope you aren't seriously going to strut around points in a debate with information like that.



Yes he is.

Atheists always tend to get huffy and puffy when it comes to this, and they take it as opportunity to lash out at anyone. Even if theres only slight disagreement.

Kind of funny really


lmao. I've been largly spectating this conversation as well, as its been between thrun and unno.

Shame on you sir, for trying to tarnish my good southernly gentlemenship, and trying to incite denegration towards the south with these boastrous accusations

The universe may or may not be infinite.  So I should have put, "for all intensive purposes infinite" or that the Universe has no boundary. 

Fixed!

I'm throwing in with Thrun on this one.

WARNING!
Do NOT read if you are an offendable sort, easily angered, or if you'll be mad at me insulting god in general. This is not an attack on anyone, please do not consider it to be aimed at anyone in particular.

Religion is the single greatest threat to humanity we've ever come up with. It has been used as a tool of manipulation, excuse for bigotry and hate, and rallying point for the attempted extermination of huge sectors of the human population. People have used religion to condone ignorance, intolerance, barbarism, xenophobia, and war for profit, and that's just what I've seen this year.

Religion, while it may provide shallow comfort to the old or weak, is an abomination that has hindered humanity and caused uncounted hardships and unimaginable horror.

But this isn't about religion, it's about the root of all that, the big man, the (al)mighty G.O.D.

For me it comes down to a choice.

Do I believe in a magic invisible <insert description here> that exists because it always has and always will (don't ask, you cannot understand these things, it's REAL, damn you!), and do I believe this magic being blinked, sneezed, willed, or otherwise poofed the entire universe into existence?

OR

Do I believe that Science is working on the issue, the universe is  believed to be about 14.5 billion years old (and that number is  is subject to change with no bias) and the best idea right now is it all began in a "big bang", but we're still open to debate?

Hmm, Magic man because a book or books told me so vs rational assessment and "I don't know" as an acceptable answer. Guess which I pick?

The idea of a magic man/turtle/spaghetti poofing, sneezing, or noodling this universe into being is, frankly, fucking stupid.

Teaching your children that an invisible man is watching and will burn them if they don't follow the rules is most definitely abuse.


What really gets me is the attitude of the christian, "worshiping god" as they do.

It takes a certain degree of faith to defy logic, but damn, people, think about it.

Even if you accept that "god" is real and that "god" created everything, you still have to question WHY these things are, and then question WHY worship this being.

Imagine an omnipotent being, omniscient and glorious. This being poofs the entire universe into being on the first day, then sets about creating fish, strawberries, and men.

Day 7, look what I made.

Day 8, this omnipotent, omniscient, loving creator of all things says to the fragile, beautiful, SENTIENT beings he has made "Yo! WORSHIP ME OR FRY!"

WTF? What type of egomaniac dick would create an intelligent, sentient species with the one intention of having them worship him? Worse, what kind of degenerate deity would deliver these sentients into immortality upon their deaths, only to condemn those who didn't follow orders and worship him* into eternal torment?


 I'm sorry, if your god is so insecure that he needs his D-Peen** stroked by millions of terrified beings, I'm not sure I can worship that.




I prefer to accept that there are mysteries I do not yet know, rather than the illogical and horrible ideas presented by a creator.



*Accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and get into heaven, otherwise BURN IN HELL ABOMINATIONS!

**Contraction of Deific and Penis

Yet another person that judges the idea of creation or creator on the concepts of religions.


Zidane is not impressed.

The flying spaghetti monster is though.  All praise his noodly appendage!

I wonder if he was taught or teaches that the universe is infinite as well :)

The other is Jam Bands.  Fucking Jam bands.

We should try and catch him red hainded!

In all seriousness in the context I was talking about I don't think it is unfair to call the universe infinite.



http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html#RB

Off-topic much?

Reptoid!

Not sure if i can add to much that hasnt been said, but I'll try.
                                "ahem"
If God is love, and love is blind, is Ray Charles God?

No Lemmy is. 

Oh really? lol yeah?

So now you are going to go on some crackpot's notion that the universe is infinite? even in light of the successfully proven model of explosion from the singularity?

And you want to question the concept of an eternal creator, when you support the idea of immeasurable space?

Anyone? Hypocrite? Beuller? Anyone?

Seriously, is there actual sex in softcore that they're just not showing us?  Or is that a harder quest to answer than "is the universe finite" or "is God real?"  You motherfuckers are reall good at selectively staying on topic.  Speaking of, if I declared my religion as Jedi, could I swear an oath on a Timothy Zahn novel?

Wow I was in town today form 8am to 11pm and I missed a lot and I'm dead tired, But I was thinking about it and I wanted to make one thing very clear to everyone.
I'm by no means, trying to prove the bible via contemporary knowledge. In fact the exact opposite I'm trying to validate contemporary knowledge via the Bible. Any assertions of bias on that point are absolutely true. Christians have always lived by faith and not by sight. E.G.

When scientific Theory was that the Universe itself was eternal. Christians stood by their belief in spite of the "knowledge" of the time.

Pre 1927 when critics said the Biblical prophets knew nothing of modern society. Talking about how diverse and wide spread or culture was across the globe. Criticizing verses in the bible talking about the entire world physically watching certain events at the same time. That would be an impossibility due to the number of the population alone . Until 1927 the creation of the television and later the internet.

Who would have thought, that the Jews who were scattered across Europe and the world. Would return to their homeland inhabited by people who hated them and resurrect history's only example of a dead language brought back to life Hebrew. Just as for told.
 Even more so from Isaiah 66 :
Who has ever seen anything as strange as this?
  Who ever heard of such a thing?
Has a nation ever been born in a single day?
  Has a country ever come forth in a mere moment?
That happened May 14, 1948.

ect.. ect.. I could go on but I'll hold it for now


Aldoran, while your view of hatred for religion is obviously deeply ingrained. I would submit to you that any belief system, used by men (who are inherently sinful by nature post fall.). Is used for power, greed, and ultimately the suppression or murder of "common" people.   E.G. The current Communist body count is estimated: 149,469,610 to date. Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot... you get the idea. Thats why with any belief system including Christianity you have to look at what they believe and why without letting evil people distort the message. example: Now someone get Thrun and Jt a 5 gallon bucket there going to shit their pants. THE COMMUNIST MANIFESTO (read it if you haven't, isn't very long) is a good idea, IF you lived in a society full of moral, selfless people who all had the same belief system. Which will never exist on earth.

I want you to answer a question for me. When you die one of two things are going to happen. You, as in your consciousness is going to either cease to exist or change. Both of which are incomprehensible in our physical state. Let me know what you believe is going to happen and why?

gr0n I love this:
"As a species we have an incessant desire to understand everything around us"
That is absolutely true. Scripture tells us we have that desire so we will see the work of God's hand and know him. I, like many other people before me believe that science especially on today's level is the embodiment of that desire. And we have found creation more amazing and delicate than we can possibly comprehend.

I think it would be beyond Irony that a series of random events and mutations ended up with conscious beings that demand to know where they came from and why instead of being driven by only instinct.

"Why is your God the Truth and not Odin or Allah?  I can quote from the Koran or Prose Edda if you'd like, they are holy books as well.  Why dont' you use either of them to define your beliefs?"

Thrun, I think you should evaluate any belief systems you believe are possibly true, as I did. I think you will find them lacking in a multitude of areas, as I did. Feel free to ask me about any of them. When you find scripture and the one true God of the Bible. It is vastly vastly different. I recognize it is a hard thing to do in this time, because there is so much "stuff" out there. Thats what my first post was all about. In fact the Bible tells us that no man comes to the Father on his own he has to be called. Because it takes faith. Just like we have been discussing nothing is for certain not in science and not in our existence thats what faith is all about.
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."-2 Peter 3:9

Just for fun in case you actually decide to look into belief systems or anyone for that matter. I'll list the criteria I used for initially evaluating them.

1. it has to answer all the big questions in life (and after life given the belief)
2. It has to bear good fruit. a.k.a. what are the results of the belief system.
3. It has to correspond to reality, not just scientific but what you know to be true from your own existence.
4. It shouldn't hinder others in searching for truth / declare anyone who doesn't believe like they do needs to die.
5. Any prophecies of the future have to be fulfilled. (not that all prophecy has been fulfilled but the track record so to speak.)

i don't think it is fair to accuse religion of that unless the specific religion promotes that. While some religions say its OK to kill under certain circumstances, (for instance if you leave the faith of Islam your likely to get your head sawed off BY YOUR OWN FAMILY).  Of course there is corruption in religions just like there is in EVERYTHING. No where in the bible does it "condone ignorance, intolerance, barbarism, xenophobia, and war for profit."



would you prefer not existing? I've concluded that life is a gift, and choose to worship god out of free will. And "if you accept that "god " is real and that he created everything," i would say that god would be deserving of worship, wouldn't you?

i also find it strange that you find that believing in a creator as being "illogical" as if we believed in god because were stupid idiots who caunt use aour stoopid idout braiins, considering you have no explanation yourself yet choose to try and defame creationist as being "fucking stupid."As Christians we do not blindly believe our faith, we have the bible which is testament to our faith, it is the repository of what we believe and why.

thrun- God is OUR God...and this is where it fasinates me the most....we don't know the begining of Gods....
but, we have the potential to become Gods...
it is an eternal principle

everyone else-
but basically i don't see the point of arguing about religion on the internet...
I like to learn about different beliefs etc, if only to better understand how mine differ.
I have no problem with people believing what they want, or not believing, whatever the case may be.  I just dont want people to make fun of me, belittle my beliefs, try to tell me how wrong I am, telling me my beliefs are based on falicy etc, because i try not to do the same.
Things I believe, my relationship with God, is for ME and it is a very personal thing. I'm happy to answer questions, as long as people really want the answers.
all beliefs should be personal. 
I'm mormon, or should i say a member of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints (www.lds.org   -->>if you wanna find some stuff) yes we have missonaries to teach people who want to learn about us.
But as I said, i dont think a gaming forum is the place to discuss beliefs, other than beliefs like "i believe blizzard nerfed my class because....." "i believe the expansion is going to...." etc....

to answer this

muslins swear on the Koran, jews on the Torah.

its in the open discussion section, from the the looks of it this is more of a discussion than an argument, I don't think anyone will make fun of your beliefs. Not questioning and not challenging what you believe is a dangerous game, no matter what you believe.

Jesus fucking christ I had almost forgotten why people call you Nighttroll.

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universe

You have to read the whole thing on these links

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/infpoint.html

http://www.universetoday.com/guide-to-space/the-universe/infinite-universe/

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909029,00.html

It's not random.   It's cause and effect.  


While I think your belief structure fails it's own test on points 1,2, 3 and 5 (or at least doesn't do any better then the others)  I will focus on 4.

How is the threat of eternal damnation not hindering my own belief system, or equivalent of the threat of death?

these two points still need addressed as well
1. Why doesn't god heal amputees?
2  Does your church have a lightning rod?


edit

The Vikings are still in the running for calling how life will end
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

Sorry forgot to answer this


My answer is I have no fucking clue, and neither does anyone else.  Though I will say one of my favorite slogans is, "I won't give a shit,  I'll be dead"  any time the subject of what happens to my corpse comes up. 

You can believe whatever you want, and I am not questioning your right to do so.  The problem is that you have 0 proof of this assertion and I don't think it should be interjected in to conversations about existence as a result.  I'm pretty sure that's the primary point I have been arguing the entire time.  Believe what you want about what happens when you die, or the supernatural  just don't expect any one else to believe the same way or accept your beliefs since they are all faith based.  

And that the explanation of 'god did it' and 'because I said god can' or horrible, horrible explanations for anything.

edit,

Also, if people stop exchanging ideas with each other (call it an argument or a discussion) we stop learning and thinking. 

The answer to your question Chow is no.  Most of it is obvious with the positioning of the orifices in relation to other orifices/protrusions but mostly its easy to tell from the soft bump and grinding you see with the softcore.  Can't have bump and grind in hardcore. You have to be able to see the wang going into something and that is just too much motion to be able to have selective camera angles.

Either that or the fact that that the dude is always eating out her belly button. 

Actually the bible does say in at least a couple of places that anyone who doesnt believe as it says has to die.  Add that to the fact that the god of the Hebrews butchered the firstborn of an entire nation just to prove how big his dick was and lets just say he is not a god I would worship, even if he is the "One True God" he's a dick.  There are a number of places that the bible spews hate and intolerance, I know because as a child my parents made me read it, which is one of the biggest reason I am not nor ever will be a christian.

To be fair God allowed the Pharaoh to pick his own fate, and the reason that happened is because the Pharaoh said he was going to do it first.  

That being said, a truly loving and benevolent creator that is all powerful would have handled the situation differently in my opinion.  

Which brings me to the problem of evil, but that's just going to drag this thread out even farther.

(http://xenlogic.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/epicurus_quote1.jpg)

Actually every time Moses went to pharaoh he relented but then it says "god hardened pharaohs heart" so that means that god was trying to show how powerful he was by heaping more and more plagues on the Egyptians. That is only one incident in the bible though there are several more.

what she said

Those two scenarios are both valid, and in all probability the first, Oblivion, is likely. I don't fear that, though. Nothingness also precludes knowledge of nothingness, so I won't be around to notice being dead. =)

The second and less likely scenario, transubstantiation, does not necessarily mean "go to heaven or hell" but would mean that life was not meaningless. It also would not prove a creator, though it would be a proof that we do not know everything about existence.  I would welcome something after death, and if after I get there someone officially says "the correct religion was... Seventh Day Adventist. Seventh day folks with me, everyone else, the bus to hell is waiting over there." Well, I suppose I'm boned.

I don't know what happens after death, I've never done it.


Unno, interestingly you've done the same thing every Christian I've talked to did. you ignored the comment about invisible magical men and brought up the fear topic, "what about when you die?". Many Christians concentrate on ignoring the basics (magic made the world) to keep up the argument of eternal reward vs torment. If there is no magical man, how could there be a soul, and therefore how could there be anything but terror waiting us at the end of life? The idea of oblivion is so frightening to so many people that they will accept a childrens story of elves and faeries before facing that fear?

Life after death is a great idea, it's comforting to think we didn't lose grandpa when he died, but he's waiting for us somewhere.  The problem comes when we let that comfort become a way of life. But that's my 2 copper.

Say what? I'm just here to facilitate stimulating conversation. Otherwise people are just typing letters.

And the question still stands - How are you willing to accept the notion of an infinite immeasurable space, but not the concept of an eteral creator or creation based process?

As soon as I find a note on the side of a planet that says,

"I did this!  xx's and oo's

-God"

I'll accept it.  

And to further elaborate on this, I view accepting a god as pointless because of Pascal's wager.  I know he originally intended it to do the opposite but since he didn't factor the other 1 billion gods/religions in to it his bets were a little off.  

So it's not that I am against accepting a god if given appropriate reason to do so, I'm just against selecting one arbitrarily as it seems pretty effing pointless.  


edit,

also most creationist arguments state that everything has to have a creator, except god.  Which is bullshit and goes back to the "well god did it because I said he can" crap.  But we are going to go back in circles if we keep discussing that over and over.

fixed

Specific religion? Religions do a lot that isn't in their holy book, my friend. For example:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Westburo baptist church. For them, God is an excuse for Bigotry, hate, and malice. They spread their hatred and bile to their children, and have picketed the funerals of servicemen who died in Iraq, chanting "Burn in hell, murderer" to their widows and children.

That's just one easy example, but here is another, slightly less psychotic example:
http://www.raptureready.com/faq/rap23.html
These kids hate Fags, Jews, Abortionists, Obama, Islam, Free speech, Witches, liberals, and some poor bastard named Benny Hinn. Oh, yeah, and Christmas trees. They hate fucking Christmas Trees!





I have no fear of not existing, and life may be a gift, but what does that giver want in exchange? If the answer is nothing, then why would the giver want your worship? Why would he care? Why would he give you a book saying "believe in me, accept me, and I'll get you into my dad's mansions" and you interpret this as "fall on your knees and prostrate your free will to me or else I'll fucking smack you!"?

Either god doesn't want worshiped, and you're wasting your time, or god does want worshiped and my previous comments apply, making him a petty deity unworthy of anything but contempt.



You have a book, and that book is all you need? Every answer in your universe comes from a book? Holy shit, that's easy. Why don't we all get books and make those the answer?

I pick the "Dungeons and Dragons" players guide. It answers all the questions, after I die I go to another plane where my god (Pelor, I want to be a good guy) is waiting. If the priests like me, they can cast the level 5 raise dead spell on my and I'll come back to life! I will work hard and maybe, just maybe, I can dual class into being a 5th level gamer, 1st level cleric and cast spells.

What? My book is just as valid as yours, it's bound paper and ink, and it's got pictures! If the idea of Pelor vs Baal sounds stupid, imagine the names changed to Jesus and Lucifer. If going to another plane sounds strange, just say heaven, and if dual classing sounds stupid, imagine it as becoming a preacher holding communion.

Stupidity is blind faith, and if you think I'm insulting you, you're wrong. I'm insulting the idea that any rational being will say "the bible said it, so it's true", hug their book, and ignore reality.

It's not random.   It's cause and effect.    Well said Thrun, everything physical has a cause and effect. So then you can not possibly believe in naturalism. And there for must acknowledge that our existence had some cause as well as all genetic information, conciseness ect.. must have some cause. This goes back to what I said about hypothetically, what you would want to look for in a cause to our physical universe. metaphysical, all powerful, hyper intellectual.




While I think your belief structure fails it's own test on points 1,2, 3 and 5 (or at least doesn't do any better then the others)  I will focus on 4.
lol, well your entitled to your opinion however misguided. I think that if you were to look into these points especially 5, you would find otherwise.

How is the threat of eternal damnation not hindering my own belief system, or equivalent of the threat of death?
The Bible doesn't say to hinder "lost" people quite the opposite. Lead them to Christ by example and how you treat them. As far as the threat of damnation.. Hell is separation from God. "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Rev 22:12 God is just he is not going to simply say into the lake of fire you go. He is going to justly judge everyman according to what he has done. There will be different levels of judgment. The truth is though that I, you and everyone is guilty of sin. God can not and will not tolerate sin. Therefore, sin separates us from God. It isn't a "threat" your free to believe whatever you want to believe. But, to be in the presence of God you must be free of sin and there is only one way to be forgiven... and it is free of charge you just have to be willing accept it.

I have no fucking clue, and neither does anyone else.  Though I will say one of my favorite slogans is, "I won't give a shit,  I'll be dead"

Hehe I like this but perhaps more eloquently put by one of my favorite atheist quote Blaise Pascal.
"I know not who put me into the world, nor what the world is, nor what I myself am. I am in terrible ignorance of everything. I know not what my body is, nor my senses, nor my soul, not even that part of me which thinks what I say, which reflects on all and on itself, and knows itself no more than the rest. I see those frightful spaces of the universe which surround me, and I find myself tied to one corner of this vast expanse, without knowing why I am put in this place rather than in another, nor why the short time which is given me to live is assigned to me at this point rather than at another of the whole eternity which was before me or which shall come after me. I see nothing but infinites on all sides, which surround me as an atom and as a shadow which endures only for an instant and returns no more. All I know is that I must soon die, but what I know least is this very death which I cannot escape.

"As I know not whence I come, so I know not whither I go. I know only that, in leaving this world, I fall for ever either into annihilations or into the hands of an angry God, without knowing to which of these two states I shall be for ever assigned. Such is my state, full of weakness and uncertainty. And from all this I conclude that I ought to spend all the days of my life without caring to inquire into what must happen to me. Perhaps I might find some solution to my doubts, but I will not take the trouble, nor take a step to seek it; and after treating with scorn those who are concerned with this care, I will go without foresight and without fear to try the great event, and let myself be led carelessly to death, uncertain of the eternity of my future state."


This is unfortunately the view of many today. Rejecting their very nature and existence, to ask the question of why.

P.S. I promise Ill get to those questions, and elaborate on a few answers. You also asked if I believe in a "young" earth. Well yes I do younger than contemporary knowledge would suggest. I'll tell you why if I have time tonight after work.

P.S.S. just read your new post. I agree with you Pascal wager is a joke IMO.

if your referring the the account of exodus i don't think god was trying "to prove how big his dick was," he did it because the Hebrews were enslaved for about 400 years...so pharaoh wasn't such a nice guy to begin with.

As for your other claims they're all spoken in generalities so they don't hold much weight.

"Actually the bible does say in at least a couple of places that anyone who doesnt believe as it says has to die"

lol...hmmm, no  

unno

1.  Cause and effect, there we go again with the "god did it because I said he can"  crap.  

2.  You are in la la land here, no point in discussing it further

3.  What is god going to do with me if I don't believe in him?  Are you saying that your god isn't going to do anything negative to me if I don't kiss his ass?

Aldoran,
   Westburo baptist church has no biblical basis for their hatred or bigotry. There simply evil judgmental people. The "church" is the pastors family and like 4 other people.

Unno, interestingly you've done the same thing every Christian I've talked to did. you ignored the comment about invisible magical men and brought up the fear topic,

lol well first of all you will not find me dodging any questions or criticism. But, if you want to me to respond to blind attacks on God your mistaken. You didn't state any facts, or ask any questions, nor have you refuted any of what we have been talking about. If you have a legitimate criticism, I will be happy to respond. (just like westburo that is a legitimate criticism) Asking if I believe in "magic men" is hardly a question worth answering.

Cause and effect, there we go again with the "god did it because I said he can"

God is the best answer to life, maybe the only answer as other theories seem to be continually falling to pieces and resulting in talking about aliens and crystals creating life. You criticize but your coming up short on alternatives.

3.  What is god going to do with me if I don't believe in him?  Are you saying that your god isn't going to do anything negative to me if I don't kiss his ass?


Just like I said judgment comes according to what you have done. If you have not sinned and are guilty of no crime than, you have nothing to fear. But, you and I both know "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Rom 3:23

The best answer to Life is currently, I don't know.  Since no answer that is given has any more proof of being right then the others

So since I have done no differently then anyone else, what is your god going to do to me if I don't kiss his ass?

what I am going to do to all of you....beat you within an inch of your life.

Can everyone shut up and go back to flirting with Ella...she needs some attention

thanks for proving my point.

Just to make sure I am being a dick to everyone equally, here's plenty of places where the bible tells us to do some pretty awful things.

http://www.evilbible.com/

I refuse to flirt with angle shots. 

(http://xenlogic.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/epicurus_quote1.jpg)

Good old Epicurus and an excellent question on his part and yours. The question comes from a misunderstanding of our existence. God created man with freewill, that he could love God freely. You have no idea the price tag God puts on freely given love. The universe is just one example, the death of his son is a second. He is both willing and able, and he will eradicate sin and make sure that just punishment is given. The Bible tells us that the reason he has allowed sin to go on for this long is he is patient, so that you me and everyone else has the opportunity to acknowledge him. Sin/evil is dissobedience to God. Freewill gives us the option to sin/do evil or not.

If he is both able, and willing? Then whence come evil? Answer free will. Remember that God didn't make man evil he made us perfect. Evil was a result of our choices. You will notice that, how patient God is with us is not alloted to his other creations. Need proof of this truth, go by a carton of eggs and a quarter pounder with cheese. Find a homeless man and decide for yourself, whether to feed him or egg the crap out him. Is one evil absolutely, but you have the ability to choose either and that goes for everything we do in our lives on a daily basis.

Now God does intervene and has through out history. Egypt, return of Israel, Jesus, ect. because he loves us. But, God's intervention is for his own purposes if he intervened every time there was evil that would eradicate our free will.

I would like to point out that most atheist who quote this deny that there are moral absolutes aka right and wrong. Which makes right and wrong (evil) a matter of opinion and not fact. Which of course completely discredits the question itself. After all what is evil if we don't have the knowledge of good and evil. If right and wrong are based simply on the sum total of your experienced and you were raised and taught to hate and murder black people, or to steal if you find it necessary who is to say those things are wrong. You can't unless you acknowledge morality, which is truth, which is God.

http://www.evilbible.com/
lol oh man I need to drop science on these kids, Thrun if you actually would like me to explain any passage of scripture feel free to ask I'm obviously not going to write the book on the misunderstandings and falsity's of this website.

There is no absolute right or wrong, morals and good/evil are relative to the situation.  

here's a good one

    "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers.  Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin.  There are no survivors to even tell what happened.  I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now!  Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.'  But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn."  So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations.  For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them.  All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy.  "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together.  My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.   (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)

Did someone say Nighttroll?!

(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/705/nighttrollzq6.jpg)

that picture is only rivaled by drunk leaning man

The best answer to Life is currently, I don't know. 
I really appreciate your honesty. So why not Thrun prove or disprove any ideas about life? That is in essence why we are here, and every individuals feels the need to do this. That is why we have such a vast array of beliefs, though all for short but one.

So since I have done no differently then anyone else, what is your god going to do to me if I don't kiss his ass?
Because, you won't ask for forgiveness, all you have to do is ask. Immediately that goes against everything you have been taught. That no one can judge anyone, truth belongs to the individual, or in the words of satanist do what thou wilt will be the law.  You have been taught that God is against everything that is fun anything you would want to be a part of. The God that created: sex, booze, endorphins adrenalin, rivers, fishing, and anything else you could want to do ( how often do you hear that from the pulpit ;D). God made us to be able to experience happiness on a level most people don't understand, and he also gave us guidelines to use them. Sin comes in to play when we ignore those guidelines. And what is the result: broken families, the massacre of children, peoples lives wasted on alcohol and drugs, divorce, loneliness, abuse, murder, greed, selfishness. All these stem from people who refuse to acknowledge the morality of God.

Perhaps it will have more impact as a question than a statement. How different would the world be if everyone followed the ten commandments? Or even the two greatest commandments: love the lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength. And love your neighbor as yourself? The answer: It would be a Utopia.





[/quote]

LOL

No, but they did say that Brutus got knocked the fuck out..

(http://i987.photobucket.com/albums/ae353/ealabor2/buckeye.jpg)



And that you are a Facist..

(http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/ealabor/2reform_whisperer.jpg)

The funny thing is, if I ask a muslim they will answer it in the same way and with the same evidence you have.   Also I should note that you can't prove a negative, so I really have no way to prove there is no god. 

see my sig

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
- Stephen Roberts




ROFLMAO


Churches are filled with divorced couples, pedophiles,  alcoholics, abusers  and ass holes.  Just like any other large group of people.   The difference is, if my friend one of my friends wants to smoke some meth and fuck men in the ass he doesn't wake up the next morning and cry about it.  And none of us go, "so I heard you like sleeping with dudes. You're gonna burn in a lake of fire forever."   The old testament  is rife with war, murder, and infanticide.  Sanctioned and even committed by god.  

To create a utopia you don't even need 10 commandments, you need one and one only.

Do on to others as you'd have them to on to you.  Or even shorter, don't be a dick.

I stumbled across that picture the other day when I was rounding up pictures of women I no longer associated with, it still makes me giggle. 

hehe

Holy shit I must have missed that one the first time around...brilliant!  LOL

i know its old, i dont care i just think its awesome that he listens to slayer.
(http://johngushue.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/13/god_listens_to_slayer.jpg)

just because people fail to practice what they preach, doesn't mean that what they preach doesn't have some truth to it.

and I refuse to stick to that whole "because god said so" routine. Is it something good and right because gods says so, and WHY does he say so? does he know why its right? Has he seen what will happen if we don't do it?

also, sometimes i forget that i am talking to people who don't have similar beliefs than i do, so i tend to say stuff that people dont understand, even though it makes sense to me.

Still following Thrun like an echo...

Unno, here's an argument you can reply to. Without the sarcasm, funny bits, or other humorous comparisons.

You believe in god, as in an invisible, omnipotent being that has never been recorded, quantified, analyzed, or interacted with in any quantifiable manner that has the ability to create, destroy, manipulate and alter the universe at will.

This belief is independent of religion, I don't know or care what brand of god you've got, kosher or lean, it's still an invisible being with magical powers.

My question is, how can you base your life on belief in a magical man?

This..

[yt=425,350]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rov3pV9PsRI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rov3pV9PsRI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/yt]


You have 2 chances:

1 to get right with Glen Beck
and 1 more to get right with God

You believe in god, as in an invisible, omnipotent being that has never been recorded, quantified, analyzed, or interacted with in any quantifiable manner

Well I think your missing a few things, here. the person of Jesus, the prophets of the old testiment, God's intervention on behalf of iserial ect. God is absolutley interacting with us in history, and personally.
If I were to ask you what the date was you would tell me. September, 15 2009 you realize that the date itself testifies to the life of Christ. (I can hear it already rabble rabble rabble gregorian rabble clander rabble catholic.=Julian calander Age of the martyrs check it.)
God has absolutley been recorded, he has been analyzed since the begining of time, and interacted with repeatedly through out history. As well as quantified as something that we can't comprehend without his direction.

BTW for you and Thrun the point of my question with death was not to talk about death, but to bring about the reality that there are things that exist that you can neither comprehend, nor can expereince right now. I don't know what happens after death, I've never done it./ My answer is I have no fucking clue, and neither does anyone else.Thats exactly right, but you still know it is a reality. No matter what answer you choose it still takes faith, based on what you beleive to be true.   That is the best way I could think of to describe how a relationship with God starts.

Did someone say drunk leaning man?!

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3663/img1859oh3.jpg)

Did someone say fiction?!

(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/2690/conspiracytheoryxx5.jpg)

Hey unno:

Why doesn't god heal amputees?

Does your church have a lightning rod?

What is your god going to do to me if I don't kiss his ass?

and night, that video dishonors some of those who have died fighting for you. Show a little fucking respect. 

http://www.ffrf.org/foxholes/

A lack of knowledge of a certain thing does not constitute a need to belive in or have faith in something else just because you dont have an answer to said thing. Thats the problem with religion, its mans attempt to answer questions that we cannot answer. Ideas, thoughts, scientific break throughs have happened throughout history that have explained away mystic powers and much of what "faith" people had held as answers. If there is a god, and im not saying there isnt, he has designed everything in such an orderly and scientific way that its hard to belive we have to rely on blind faith for much of anything, even belief in his own being.
/2 cents

Varg! hey man I appreciate your post. I think that practical science is indeed discovering God's handiwork. I do want to say on faith though that, the very definition of faith would be something along the lines of  A firm belief in something that can not be proven, and in some cases a firm belief in something despite evidence to the contrary. So I think by its very definition, if there was a lack of knowledge on any subject it would take faith to fill those gaps and claim you believe it to be true. the problem with religion, its mans attempt to answer questions that we cannot answer. I agree with you 100% If religion was an attempt by MAN to answer question we can not it would be patently false. However, I believe that God has gone through great lengths to make himself known, and that Christianity is based not on the teachings of man but of God.

Thanks for chiming in with such a well spoken and understandable point of view.

And what if your not ready? What if your not at the point of acknowledging the problems of existence but seek to know the answers? No i'm not talking in some kind of Christian code. I'm asking if your sure, if your ready to hear the answers.  You refuse to even acknowledge that truth exist, and yet you want to know the reasons behind what you view as unfair atrocities? Thrun, If right and wrong don't exist how can you even insinuate that someone not having a leg is wrong?

Or perhaps better put by asking if someone broke into your house robbed and killed you in the process but was doing it because he needed money for drugs, or booze or hookers or whatever and it was right in his own mind would you consider that wrong?

Or even better Islam tells us that honor killing for anyone who disrespects you, especially woman is ok. So if a woman refused to do the dishes and the guy decided to saw her head off. That went right in line with his belief system. according to what he was taught that is perfectly acceptable?

I have written the answers to your questions, but 1. I don't know if your ready to hear them. 2. I don't know if you'll actually read them in their entirety because they are long. 3. I don't know if you'll listen with open ears until we work out some of these other things.

I'll go back and look for them, not sure how I missed them

Check on Glenn Beck while you are at it.

It's a good show.

Jason Lewis is much better.

And if this doesn't make you believe in a creator then I don't know what will:

[yt=425,350]vYT2aWavXlc[/yt]

No.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2787311428_fbcbb9da4c.jpg)

http://glennbeckrapedandmurderedayounggirlin1990.com/

How about real documentation of god? Your bible is no more evidence of god than the Koran, Torah, The Pali Cannon, My D&D manual, or Amazing Spiderman #64. Each is  published by man, written by man, and each is considered fiction by anyone who doesn't believe in it.

I accept that our society is influenced by religion. The dates we use are numbered in a Christian fashion, but years would still pass without Jesus, the numbers would just be different. Our weekdays are based on the names of gods, but does Thursday prove the existence of Thor?

Historical persons interacting with god is spurious argument at best. Joan of Arc could have been talking to god, or she could have been nuts. Moses and a burning bush? Maybe he just saw his people in need of a moral guide and made some shit up? What better reason to follow these new rules than to spin a tale of holy power?

Give me proof, quantifiable, visible proof, of god. If he can heal cancer when asked, let him heal an amputee. Until there is independent, non-biblical proof of god he's going to have to stay in the same class, "invisible magical being".

So, prove it or admit it, God is an invisible magical being.

god you guys need hobbies

Christian apologetics is a hobby of mine

Dude! Trolling the 'net for religious discussions IS my hobby! I never thought I would get a chance to do it here!

I'm not insinuating that not having a leg is wrong, I am insinuating that it is wrong of god to promise to heal people and completely ignore or refuse to do so for amputees.  Which leads me to believe he's not doing it for people that survive heart attacks and credit it to god either.

I said morality is not absolute, not that right/wrong/Truth don't exist.  

I can think of numerous situations where following the ten commandments would contradict what I would consider the right thing to do.  Situations where lying or killing would be preferred to telling the truth or not harming someone abound.

So there is a right and wrong, it's just that they slide depending on the situation you are placed in at the time.  Make sense?


As far as the Islam stuff, I can quote bible verse after verse where women are told to be subservient and man is comanded to murder infadels/slaves/family members.  




I am unable to find a post where you tell me if your church has a lightning rod, why god won't heal amputees and what your god is going to do to me if I don't prostrate myself before him.

Can you direct me to a post number?

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

Thrun, he heals Cancer kids, heart attack victims, those with congenital defects, but never amputees. God hates amputees.

I'm trying to watch Glenn Beck right now but he seems to fill the same slot as Limbaugh and Moore.  I can't listen to any of them for a long time with out shitting my pants. 

I'd probably pray to her
(http://images.absoluteastronomy.com/images/topicimages/c/ca/camilla_henemark.gif)

+1 to Kas I laughed out loud on this!

No crap! maybe it was her large eyes or her even larger lips and mouth but many a chubby went to her in the mid to late 90's.

Alright so I sat down last night and wrote out a response in detail to your question. It included a ridiculous amount of information and was many pages long. Because the question itself is based on so many misunderstandings. Misunderstandings about our existence, the nature of God, why suffering exist, the miracles of Jesus/God, how he intervenes in our lives, ect...
So I'm going to write them out in simple point by point format without elaborating, so I can get to your question without having to teach a course on the biblical fundamentals that govern existence. Then if you have any objections, counter points, questions, I can elaborate and give examples.

1. God created man perfect in his image. No suffering.
2. The fall of man, his separation from God, the entrance of sin, punishment, suffering as a direct result of this event
  2.(a) The punishment of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
3. That we are God's prized possession, and he does not want any to suffer but all to come to repentance.
4. That he with full fore knowledge of the events that would take place made us with free will, and that he understood in advance the sorrow, suffering, and lengths he would have to go through to recover humanity form it's state.
5. That this life is temporary suffering. As a result of the fall of man.
6. because of his love for us God allows suffering. If you mind was not just blown I'll repeat that statement. Because of his love for us God allows suffering.
7. As Christians we are not exempt from suffering, in fact we should expect increased suffering
8. That we are not to have any hope in the flesh, that our bodies are wasting away, with or without limbs, sight, ect...

I'll stop there to elaborate on nine. 9. The miracles of Jesus/God. God is not a vending machine, you do not put in a prayer and get out what ever candy coated miracle, you ask for. There are certain promises that he makes, but no where does he somehow say that if you are a Christian you will have a life free of pain, suffering, poverty ect.. quite the opposite. The entire question comes form the point of view that the flesh is all we have. If all we had was this life and this body. Loosing a leg would be a catastrophic deal. How horrible it would be to go through life without a limb, or blind, or sick! It is those very afflictions that make us realize how fragile our lives are! Jesus, healing the sick, the blind, and the afflicted was not about that persons eyes or their physical bodies. It was about their faith that he was the Son of GOD. (Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you." Luke 18:42) That is what healing was about to testify that he was the Lord God. You see that act, thinking only of the physical ramifications, but it is the outward expression of an inward change that came from believing in God.  

10.  He knows the numbers of hairs on your head, nothing escapes his knowledge. If any affliction comes. Amputation, cancer, heart attack. He already knows and has allowed it to happen.

There is more but will get to the question to save on time. You see this as a test for God, well if God is God grow this arm back! You would reject every other proof of God in creation, pay no head to the miracle that you are, and ask mockingly to see something you think impossible... The request it self is of a superficial nature, not even understanding why God would heal someone. Besides! FORGET AMPUTATION! That is but a footnote in the arena of suffering a joke that people who truly suffer would laugh at! I know it sounds dramatic but I work at a huge hospital. I comfort, love, and give hope in Jesus to people who would love to be just missing a foot. To kids, an adorable 4 year old girl born with leukemia won't make it to 5, a baby who's parents were to methed out to care and just leave it to suffer and die before paramedics found it, Young husbands with young kids and wives who's organs shut down with no cause! I don't think you even begin to comprehend how bad it gets in this life! Until you have been there. SO you ask well why doesn't God make them all well if he loves them so much? It is this place that is there affliction! In this life all will suffer, all will grow old, and  all will die. He is taking them out of their suffering it is just in a way that you don't understand because your answer to life and what comes next is  “I have no fucking clue, and neither does anyone else.” You see there is a lack of hope in atheism! That lack of hope comes form a lack of truth. You pretend that God is the problem when he is the answer! What hope do you have for the cripple? What promise to the cancer patient, what comfort to parents who just watched their child die? Um, thats to bad, better luck next time, the same series of random events that caused you to come into being have caused this tragedy, this life is a meaningless existence with no actual purpose. What would you tell them?

Can God heal amputees? Absolutely. It would take a man of faith to trust in God and ask for healing and it would happen. But, we know that God already knows our limb is gone. Nothing escapes his knowledge. Would he grow it back so that he might be glorified in the miracle that was performed, maybe that's up to him. But we don't care either way.  As long as God is glorified in it and his will is done. Because with or without our legs, with or without sight, with or without our very lives. We know the endgame, we know our destinations, We have the only hope for the hopeless, forgiveness for the sinner, rest for the weary, and solution to the problem of death itself. What is a limb to us but a hand that praises the Lord or a foot that walks in his footsteps. Or hope is not in the flesh. Were all going to die, you know that for a fact. It doesn't matter how.

Why doesn't he? I'm not God I don't know exactly why that particular miracle has no record of it being done. He is so much more knowledgeable and wise than me. I can not begin to understand all the ways of God. But if I had to guess It would be that he wants other people who suffer the same affliction to witness how a man of God handles it. How much different it is to live with suffering and have hope. As a matter of fact I don't know why he would, when it is such an awesome testimony of how God can, fulfill anyones life even in the face of severe adversity. That has been the testimony of crippled, sick and dying Christians all over the world. In a weird way it is why we are here.  (For future reference http://www.testimonyshare.com/quadriplegic-saved-by-grace/)

Do churches have lightning rods yes they do. Because, we know as Christians that hardships will come. Even more so for us that God might be glorified in how we handle them. That we will be examples of the hope that is in Jesus Christ.



I wrote a note about suffering a while back and I would like to share it with you. Not as part of the answer but as recommended reading.
The apostle Paul wrote an interesting and profound word from the Lord, that if it is for this life only we have hope in Christ we are to be pitied more than all men. For many years when I read that verse I thought only of its application to those of us who believe. But as my growth in Christ continues and I learn more about this life and the nature of men. It occurred to me that the reverse is also true, and perhaps more wide spread in its application than just people of faith. If all we have is hope in the flesh (I.E. naturalism, no God, no loving creator, no absolute truth) Then people as a species are not just to be pitied but we are living in a torturous state of consciousness. Just think of it trillions of cells/species/whatever that developed over billions of years and by mere chance and natural selection you wind up with smart monkeys who know: right from wrong, dead from alive, driven by conscious decision making and not instinct, and most of all are self aware. In our self awareness we realize we are physical finite beings who will some day die. We grow, learn, love, fear create, choose our destinies; based on passed down traits and random synapses firing in the grey matter in our heads but for what? To have fun out of the blink of an eye we call life? To work our lives away store up what we can, retire at 60 and hope were not to decrepit to enjoy Florida?.. If we make it that long. Most if not all reading this probably don't consider yourselves tortured, but is it because your not? or because like most of us we fill our lives with the here and the now. The acute focus of today and what makes me happy now; and what you think you can do to obtain your own happiness. Because the truth is we live in a world controlled by fear, famine, disease, murder, greed, lust, and any evil you can imagine. A place where the "have not's" die or are murdered on a daily basis around the world and, just might make the 9 o'clock news. While the "have's" ignore it, act like it isn't happening, or at best mention to a friend what a shame it is. On the average, a person dies every second as a result of hunger - 4000 every hour - 100 000 each day - 36 million each year - 58 % of all deaths (2001-2004 estimates) 15 Million.. 15 MILLION OF THEM EVERY YEAR ARE CHILDREN WHO NEVER EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO KNOW LIFE! How many died today while you ate lunch at work, How many in the seconds it has taken you to read this. Yet people still have the audacity to look me in the face when I talk about this and say "Luke it isn't that bad" While I got big news it is that bad in fact it is worse than our small minds can imagine; and this is just hunger you want to talk about war, genocide, oppression torture! Most of us don't have the stomach or the mental capacity to comprehend how deep it gets.
 What I'm trying to say is this. If your hope and reason for getting up in the morning is simply because your alive by a roll of the dice and it is your day to be alive. You are to be pitied more than any other creation/life form in existence. Maybe if you ignore the "have not's" and don't concern yourself with the reality and choices of existence, maybe if all your plans go right and there arn't to many speed bumps in the road of life you can eek out some semblance of success or happiness in this life for a few years. But the truth is that it probably isn't going to happen, none of us are even promised another day of life. As a dear deist friend of mine said, " It is a miracle that we wake up in the morning". It doesn't matter what you believe we are all one heart beat away from the great unknown. One aneurysm, one bad decision on the highway, one false step on a ladder, one accident at work believe me I work at a hospital I have seen it. Yet most of us slip through life saying it isn't that bad, there is always tomorrow, who are the "have not's"? So when I refer to Jesus as our hope and savior it has new found meaning to my ears.Not just for those who believe but for all of us conscious monkey's sitting on the blue marble called earth. Some starving, some lonely, some tortured, and some acting like nothing is wrong. For all of us hoping, desperately praying that maybe this isn't all there is. That there is more than just a fading shadow staring back at us in the mirror. I ask this question What/Who is your hope in?/color]

There is more to be said a lot more. The love and nature of God, our nature. Trying to comprehend all this without discussing a hundred other things is like trying to eat steak with no teeth. Your more likely to gag and throw it all up, than get fed.

here's a good one

    "I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers.  Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin.  There are no survivors to even tell what happened.  I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now!  Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.'  But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn."  So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations.  For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them.  All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy.  "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together.  My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.   (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)


The explanation is in the verse itself. First we have to make sure it is firmly established that the punishment for sin is death. God wiped out a number of ancient cities and people who did nothing but evil. They did every evil thing that they could set there minds to murder, theft, rape, false teaching ect. this wasn't a urban town full of blue collar workers and house wives. and God is the ultimate judge the only righteous judge. So he judged. God is not going to change wrong to right, or make evil acceptable. What would you have him do to stop evil?
So WHY did he do it? Surely they will have reverence for me now!  Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.
He did it for the benefit of the people. That those willing would come to repentance! Not for fun. Not because he was bored, and not because he didn't love them. But, because of his love for them he punished evil that they might acknowledge HIM/truth/morality/God and not have to suffer eternal judgment.

The verse prior to this one talk about how patient he was. Verse 5
 The LORD within her is righteous;
       he does no wrong.
       Morning by morning he dispenses his justice,
       and every new day he does not fail,
       yet the unrighteous know no shame.
He patiently judge the guilty, so that the others would see what was going on and stop their evil! He didn't simply wipe out anyone because of a few sinners. He was patient that they might come to repentance. But when not one man would accept correction he judged them all.

Just for fun: If you were not even a good person but just a regular guy, and you lived in this city/nation whatever a slum of evil. People sacrificing children, murdering, raping, stealing, pedophilia ect.. what would you like to see happen? That is my question for you, and I think it deserves an answer.

I'll go ahead and stop for tonight, it is getting late and I got school at 9am. But, there is a lot more I want to talk about and I'm sure with all the stuff I have posted tonight you'll have some pretty significant reservations and objections. One thing I want to talk about though, we got off on a much more theological discussion which is great! But at the same time there was a lot more I wanted to talk about scientifically, about existence and creation. The young earth and all of that. I have a theory that I want to share and I think it will be fun to talk about and interesting even to all the people who don't want to talk about God and beliefs. I'll throw that out there Friday since I'll be in school then work tomorrow form 8am-11pm. I just want to say I'm really really enjoying all this, and I hope at least a few other people are too. Even if we never agree on a single thing, it is such a growing experienced for anyone to have their belief system challenged.  ;D

Essentially what Unno means to say:

"Healing come by faith"

"Healing come by faith"

"Well bitch, healing come by faith!"

I think the fair reverend can say it better than myself. Fast forward to 1:28 as a woman is inquiring if he is going to heal the diseases.

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LMAO! haha thanks Night

P.S. Rev X is the antithesis of a Christian, Thats why it is funny but at the same time that man needs Jesus.

ok, so we agree that faith healing is bullshit then?  That God doesn't actually heal anyone ever? That the healing offered is just an allegory for our reward in heaven?  That is the point of the amputee question. Spontaneous regrowth of a limb is a quantifiable case that can't be attributed to a doctor, natural cause, and or dumb luck.

Why would your church have a lighting rod now when your religion fought so hard against them in the 1800's?
Could it be that the way your infallible holy book was interpreted might be a wee bit off? Could it be that the book isn't infallible?  Natural phenomenon have natural causes and solutions.  

Finaly the answer I have been trying to beat out of you, your god will hand down eternal tourment if I don't kiss his ass. No matter how much I strive to be a decent person, no matter how much I help the least of his creation, if I don't sing his praises he will see to it that I suffer pain unending.  How is this not a threat of violence?  

As far as your bible verse, I have a hard time believing that the children (let's say 7 and under) of any of these nations were physically capable of rape or murder.  MAYBE murder if you had a pack of the rug rats armed to the teeth nipping at your heals. So whatever your god's motives were, your god is perfectly willing to slaughter legions of children to prove a point.   And that point seems to be, you must kiss my ass or I will burn you.  

As for your question, it's an interesting one.  There have been plenty of cultures through out the history of man were human sacrifice and infanticide were acceptable, as well as rape being viewed as acceptable at least when committed by a husband against a wife.  Were the average Joes in these places horrible people?  Where they just taught that that is the way things are and didn't bother to question?  I don't know.   This does show to me at least, that morality is a social construct and always changing.  There is no absolute morality.  Hell look at moral behavior from the 50's and compare it to moral behavior of today.  

I can answer it from what it would mean for me, if I were suddenly living in one of these cultures I'd probably be dead inside of a week.   What would I like to see happen?  For the people of the nations to stop and think about the golden rule.  





edit:

You know, I was going to let the hope thing slide but the more I think about it is to ridiculous for me to let pass. In order for me to blame god for any problems, I would have to believe he existed.  So I don't blame god for anything.  

I don't care if people want to believe in a god, I really really don't.  But to argue that a godless existence is some how hopeless or that a person's inability to cope with tragedy is a sound argument for adopting religion is ridiculous.  I have friends, family and loved ones that have been besieged by tragedy.  I am sure we all have.  And no where do I need to turn to god for hope.  My hope is that my friends will have a good life and i will see them again and again, and for those that have died I have the fond memories of them to think back on.  When shit hits the fan, and I get sad I turn to one of the people around me and get a hug, share a laugh or cry over a beer.  To call a life full of friends and loved ones hopeless is ridiculous.

For the cancer patient, the amputee, and anyone else dying there is hope and trust that their Doctor is doing what is best for them.  Either easing their pain, or hopefully fixing it.  One hand working will always do more for a person then two hands folded in prayer.  

Stop placing judgement on the calling Jesus put on Rev X's life, that is not for you to do. 

My wife's cousin burned her seven month old baby in his crib.
Link (http://www.komu.com/satellite/SatelliteRender/KOMU.com/ba8a4513-c0a8-2f11-0063-9bd94c70b769/30411353-c0a8-2f11-01df-bbf456a99c3f)

Little Wayne lived for twenty days blind, burned over his most of body. his hands and legs were amputated, his eyes and ears burned from his head. He looked like charred meat with a mouth.

He suffered horribly for nearly three weeks, every movement was enough to make him scream, even over the effect of the drugs.

Maybe his faith wasn't strong enough?

maybe if he believed a little harder?

Maybe he needed to suffer so he's be right with god when Jesus finally let him into heaven?

Maybe this life is for suffering and Wayne was just a good seven month old Christian?

Save your God wants us to know suffering bullshit for someone who didn't see things like this. If your faith is strong enough to ignore reality, fine, but don't ever say "suffering is what god wants" or "god knows you'll suffer and he wants it that way".

If your God exists and knows exactly suffering will be, and yet does nothing for this baby or the millions upon millions of others suffering similarly, Your god is an evil being and should be held accountable for every one of the screams he has caused.

It's better to acknowledge that this is a harsh and godless universe, that cause and effect make our world, and to accept that the actions of a disturbed and evil bitch caused her baby to lie in agony for three weeks before he finally died.

ok it's perfectly fucking clear that you faggots will talk about this til the end of days and never change your stance on it....so please.....enough already. You are all geniuses. Congratulations.

You could just stop reading the thread, or if it really bothers you that much delete it.  I enjoy this stuff, I wasn't kidding when I said Christian apologetics is a hobby of mine.  I've been to the creationism museum. 

Gee thanks fuckface what wonderful advice....yes I can quit reading the thread really easily. The reason I say this shit should stop is while it might be hysterical to you someone else might take it the wrong way. I really like the community we have and don't want to lose a member/members because you think you are really clever.

I guess it's time for the trolling forum to come about.

Set your purse down and count to 5 Allice,  or at least stop with the black power jokes in your Avatar if you are worried about hurting people's feelings. 

better?

Lock it up if it really pisses you off that much, or delete it.  Either way this is my last post in the thread.   

Can you read? I could give a shit about all of it. I don't believe in all that mumbo jumbo but I'm not going to sit and argue with people about stuff they believe in. Hey it's great Unno has found religion and if it comforts him great! I am just saying there are people who might get bent out of shape with the stuff that's getting posted. I've had a couple people tell me they were getting sick of the forums and as a "council" member I am supposed to make sure peoples vaginas don't get hurt. Politics and religion are inflammatory subjects and in the past have been frowned upon. I just don't want to lose posters over stupid shit. At this point I think enough people have been run off.

You guys will get your trolling forum....so in the end you win.

I'm getting down off my soap box now.

Is this serious? You do realize me, Thrun and JT just fuck with each other right?

I can tell you that Unno is just as happy to pronounce his stance of belief, just as much as Aldoran is to challenge it, otherwise these folks wouldn't be churning out paragraph posts.

I don't necessarily agree with all of Thrun's stances, or all of JT's stances, but I know those guys would be fun to kick it with, as im sure there would be some great drunken debating, and they wouldnt get all sandy about counter stances.

Has this forum grown so much of a softcore vag?

...fucking liberals...

This.

ok, so we agree that faith healing is bullshit then?  I said the exact opposite of that. I pointed out that healing comes by faith. It is not a sign forced on unbalivers to prove God exist. Faith is the reason the actual literal healing is done.

the way your infallible holy book was interpreted might be a wee bit off? Could it be that the book isn't infallible? It is true that sometimes Christians misunderstand the words of God but that comes form not knowing all of scripture.  

Could it be that the book isn't infallible? No, I have found no fault with it and nethier have you. That might be a bit presumptuous, but if you had I assumed you would have braught it to my attention instead asking about amputees.

Finaly the answer I have been trying to beat out of you, your god will hand down eternal tourment if I don't kiss his ass. No matter how much I strive to be a decent person, no matter how much I help the least of his creation, if I don't sing his praises he will see to it that I suffer pain unending.   No, I said he will judge each man accourding to his works. God judges justly, does he warn us of the consequences of unrepentant sin...yes. After the fall of man, there were consequences. Just as now there are consequences for our sin. First of all death. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Not just physical death, but all who die without forgiveness there is eternal separation from God. That is hell. We can't understand separation form God because we have never experienced it. The bible describes it as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is not a scare tactic, but a warning. God almighty saying please don't go there! He never wants you to have to know what that is like. 2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance

I have a hard time believing that the children (let's say 7 and under) of any of these nations were physically capable of rape or murder.   Thats a valid point, and a good question. You have poor innocent children, living among these people and being sacraficed to Baal, raped ect.. God took them home. If there were no life after death this would be an atrocitie (which is where your accusation of cruelty comes from.) God does not unjustley judge. Any child who dies without understanding/ been given the chance to accept or reject God is not condemend. He took them out of hell on earth and took them to heven. What would you suggest? He leave them in the dessert alone or allow them to continue to live in their suffering?

This does show to me at least, that morality is a social construct and always changing.  There is no absolute morality.   Funny I think most reasonable people, would see this and aknowledge that morality is needed because man is evil and corrupt. There has to be a bases for morality, or else it is just opinion. Opinion that leads to tolerance, tolerance, that leads to corruption, corruption that leads to evil, evil leads to judgment. I could give 100 examples of this happening through out history.

What would I like to see happen?  For the people of the nations to stop and think about the golden rule.    Funny that was the very thing God wanted.


  
You know, I was going to let the hope thing slide but the more I think about it is to ridiculous for me to let pass. In order for me to blame god for any problems, I would have to believe he existed.  So I don't blame god for anything.  

I don't care if people want to believe in a god, I really really don't.  But to argue that a godless existence is some how hopeless or that a person's inability to cope with tragedy is a sound argument for adopting religion is ridiculous.  I have friends, family and loved ones that have been besieged by tragedy.  I am sure we all have.  And no where do I need to turn to god for hope.  My hope is that my friends will have a good life and i will see them again and again, and for those that have died I have the fond memories of them to think back on.  When shit hits the fan, and I get sad I turn to one of the people around me and get a hug, share a laugh or cry over a beer.  To call a life full of friends and loved ones hopeless is ridiculous.
 Thanks for editing that story in Thrun I really enjoyed the whole thing. I'm very happy that you have people around you that make you feel that safe and that happy.
But, you must realize that that is definitly not the reality for most of the people in the world. And that people fail, your friends won't always be there for you. I'm sure you have experienced the painful end of relationships. Being temporarily happy because of the company you keep or beer, and having actual hope are very diffrent things. a godless existence is some how hopeless or that a person's inability to cope with tragedy is a sound argument for adopting religion is ridiculous. Awww thrun!  ;DThis isn't a talk about adopting religion!  Go and read my first post one more time for me. "this isn't about opposing theology or conflicting view points on how we see Jesus. This is about your life. It is about more than what you do in your free time, what you have decided your purpose is, it is what life is all about, and what love is." You think I'm trying to get you or anyone to adopt some man made evil beast called religion your dead wrong. I'm I trying to challange your beleifs, so that you might to realize the hope and love of God.
You just told me that you have had freinds and family pass away. Then right after you told me that your friends are the source of your hope. Friends are going to fail you, not just in death, but freindships fall apart. How can your hope be in something that you know is temporary. Or beer, I know you were using this more of a figure of speech, but not for everyone. Thats how alcholoics, drug addicts, sex addicts are made. That is there line of thinking. To do whatever it takes to not deal with that pain, to avoid coping with reality. Even if that means drinking yourself to death. That doesn't sound like hope to me.

I would continue this conversation with you, but I am already breaking a promise to some one by posting in this thread but I feel rude not at least acknowledging your post.  

If we lived with in proximity to eachother, I'd invite you out for a beer (or ice cream) so we could argue in person.  I'd be tempted to invite a socialist friend out who's thesis for her doctorate is on love as a force for change since you broached that subject, but really I am done with this thread since it seems to be upsetting a large number of people from what red says.

Let the truth be known...
[yt=425,350]BEjLE82wBXw[/yt]

I think the trolling section should have a warning attached to it.  No visiting if you have sand in your vagina, or if you are already a Reptoid.

Aldoran I mean no disrespect, but this is where I live. This is what I do, everyday. Not always this horrible but, I see this sort of thing on a daily basis. Did you read anything I had posted? You think I'm somehow disillusioned or mistaken about the reality of this life? I'm the one who is acknowledging that this life is suffering and there is no hope... without Christ! It is you guys who would argue this world has some redeeming value.
I don't know how you could blame God for this atrocity? Do you understand free will?
I would respectively ask that you not put words in my mouth and quote me instead of misquoting my point of view. I never said " suffering is what god wants" or "god knows you'll suffer and he wants it that way".

The fall of man, his separation from God, the entrance of sin, punishment, suffering as a direct result of this event  
God wants none to perish, but have everlasting life.
because of his love for us God allows suffering. If you mind was not just blown I'll repeat that statement. Because of his love for us God allows suffering.In that:
Would you be grateful for sight if you didn't have knowledge of being blind? Would you acknowledge the gift of a fully functioning body if you had no idea that it could be decrepit? Would you ever look outside yourself, if all you felt was happiness and joy and knew not pain?

How can you blaspheme God saying he would want this to happen? The truth is that Wayne, spent 7 months in a world ruled by every evil thing the mind of man can come up with. The free will decision of one person took his life and caused him more pain than most of us will ever know.

So what do you have to say about this Aldoran. What is the meaning, the purpose, the end result? I can't imagine what you would answer? How would you console the family? If this life is just a random happening of some cosmic fluke that created life, then the little waynes life had no purpose no ultimate meaning.

He was here for 7 months and witnessed the evil of man. I don't know if you read my last statment about how God treats the innocent children ruined by this world. But in case no one has ever told you about the true hope of humanity let me tell you about God.

God himself shall be with wayne, and be his God. And he will be his son. God shall wipe away all tears from his eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (a variation on Rev 21:4)

I'm sorry you had to witness such atrocity. But, that is the way of the world. Things such as these happen everyday. That is reality. Is this all there is? Is this the best we can hope for?

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That video is ignorant Ella.  Shame on you.

"Pink unicorn" is just a euphemism for penis ya know.

Pre-warning, those with sandy vaginas need not read this. I hope that my rather inflammatory posts are not being seen as an attack on Unno or anyone else, he's obviously a man of faith and no short pile of theological knowledge. I doubt my posts will make him turn from his god, and I think it's a good thing to ask and answer these questions. As a side note, I respect Unno's work trying to make life a bit more bearable for those who have suffered tragedies and pain, that's good work. I just don't understand the tools in his toolbox.

Except where noted by actual quote box, all quotes in this post are amalgamated from various things said by persons of faith and cannot be attributed to any one person.


Unno, I've read everything you posted, and I don't mean to be an asshole*, but I don't understand your beliefs.


You want to know what purpose, what comfort there is? There isn't one. We live life alone, die alone, and are judged by those who know us. There is no purpose in life or death, which makes the evils men do that much more horrible. It would be easy to say "God is waiting, there's a purpose we cannot see, through a glass darkly" or similar, but that seems a lot like self delusion to me.

I couldn't console a grieving family, except to say the police are working on it, sorry for your loss.

Religion seems to be a warm and fuzzy blanket to most people, they cuddle up inside this cape of self delusion and feel protected from the inhumane and horrible things that go on around them.
It just seems wrong that they say things like "God took them home" and "She's resting with Jesus now" instead of accepting that bad people do bad things, everyone is vulnerable to disease, and drunk driving kills families.

I cannot accept "Magic" as an answer to why life exists, and I cannot accept "God's will is free will, he will judge them" as a poultice on every one of societies horrors.

Help me understand, man. WHY is god necessary? Why do those of faith choose to put everything into that book instead of accepting the cold, miserable reality we're in?

Why not accept that there really is nothing else, this is it, and life is what WE make of it?






*I cannot help it, I don't want to be an asshole, but it's who I am.

Jesus Christ... I toitally forgot about this thread and then it's 12 fucking pages long.


The winners wrote the history books and continue to write them.

Unno, I've read everything you posted, and I don't mean to be an asshole*, but I don't understand your beliefs.
Your not an asshole you have serious doubts about the existence of God because of your life experience, and what you think God is all about. Don't hold back, let me know what you think. I will certainly do the same for you.

It is hard in this day and age to have a talk, about God and about truth. Because, the world has told you that God is a cartoon character waiting to strike you down and judge you. And people who call themselves Christians have portrayed God as a cartoon character waiting for an opportunity to strike you down and judge you (especially the gays and the liberals). These people know nothing of God. They follow the teachings of man, there hearts are so calloused by the world. That when you even try to bring up the subject of truth they get upset. Because there either to far gone to fairly evaluate reality. Or they're to afraid to acknowledge there own thoughts and think about the meaning of life. You will almost never hear them pore out their hearts in such an honest fashion as this:
You want to know what purpose, what comfort there is? There isn't one. We live life alone, die alone, and are judged by those who know us. There is no purpose in life or death.   When we are at our weakest and loneliness again returns because we know even our closest relationship/marriage does not really know us. Who could know are darkest thoughts, our biggest, fears, or every sin we had ever done. If they did who could love us. Who could love you if they knew every dark, mean thought you had ever had. Especially about them. I think it is fair to say not one person would. Unless there was someone who would look past all that someone who will remember you the way he made you, as an innocent child who was corrupted and robbed of any hope at all by a world full of evil. 

You said to me that you can't understand my belief, but you do understand it so much better than you realize. There is no purpose in life or death. Your right! that is the end result of beliefs void of God! They lack purpose, meaning, fulfillment, hope, joy except what is interjected as substitutes by the world. When you finally realize the truth of God and his word. You have this overwhelming knowledge that this is it! This is what life has been missing all along, this is why I felt so lonely, so lost, so hopeless, this is why every human being has an urge to seek truth! This isn't the hope of some TV evangelist, or the religious doctrine of some bigoted church.  This is the promise of scripture and of all mighty God. That everyone of us has meaning, a purpose, and is loved.
You have to know there is more out there than loneliness and meaninglessness. Your very consciousness testifies to it. People spend there whole lives, working, or chasing tail, or whatever they do to try to legitimize themselves, to find that meaning.



Religion seems to be a warm and fuzzy blanket to most people, they cuddle up inside this cape of self delusion and feel protected from the inhumane and horrible things that go on around them I think it is quite the opposite. It is like being stripped naked and finally accepting and learning about things that most people don't even want to think about. There is a war going on for the souls of men. As people lay literally dying in the streets without hope without meaning. We are the intercessors. The light of the world, the salt of the earth. We are out in the streets, and ghettos, and homeless shelters and third world countries. We created hospitals. We spend our lives desperately trying to reach people, a life of service and hardship. I don't know where the fuzzy blanket comes in, but if I find one I'll make sure to pass it along to those less fortunate.

It just seems wrong that they say things like "God took them home" and "She's resting with Jesus now" instead of accepting that bad people do bad things, everyone is vulnerable to disease, and drunk driving kills families. Exactly, free will, evil, sin, murder, pestilence I could make the list but I think at this point you could make it better than me. Every one will experience these things. Especially Christians as we who have understanding, need to be afflicted so that we can be examples of how to live. "God took them home" ya thats a religious platitude rendered impotent and meaningless. Perhaps it should be replaced with God always has and always will keep his promises.

I cannot accept "Magic" as an answer to why life exists lol I love your use of the word magic. But I have to ask what is the alternative? Aliens seeding life on this planet, cells being formed by crystals? Perhaps we should replace magic, with miracle.

Help me understand, man. WHY is god necessary? Why do those of faith choose to put everything into that book instead of accepting the cold, miserable reality we're in? Why not accept that there really is nothing else, this is it, and life is what WE make of it? Because I know the truth.

Aldoran I appreciate your kind words to me, but I'm not worthy of any praise for my actions. I'm a sinner, unworthy to speak the name of God, undeserving of forgiveness, I don't deserve to be a servant in my fathers house. Yet he calls me son. He is the only one worthy of praise. As far as my knowledge or ability to argue theology. He made a promise to us, who were about to go out and suffer for the cause of Christ. Those of us going out into a evil world to tell people about hope.
Luke 21:14-15  So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.

i was trying to bring some silly to this thread.....

It ain't working with this one Ella.  Chow and I have been trying for a couple of pages now.

these kinds of discussions get people no-where

no matter what anyone says peoples beliefs or whatever aren't going to change.  I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with things going round in circles.

also, as a side note, I have proof that there is a God, but its not good enough proof for people who don't believe, so why bother?  I learnt a long time ago that you can't make people believe something they dont, or don't want it.  Doesn't mean i dont care any less about them, just means i try not to talk about certain stuff with them.

See I disagree completely I think It is the most important thing anyone can possibly talk about. They get people no where? Ella let me ask you how did you come to believe what you believe? Did you simply believe in one day with no prior knowledge or did some one tell you about it? If you knew something to be true, anything, anything, at all not just in the area of philosophy or theology. Why would you not want to tell other people. If you knew it was going to rain tomorrow I imagine you might bring it up in conversation, but when it comes to the truth of God for or against you would be silent? Even if no one changes there minds they are better for it. They know even more what the believe and why they believe it. They know the counter arguments, the other side of the story, the reservations people have. You try not to talk about certain stuff with them? Would you rather us have a deep conversation about Kanyae West? Or discuss the moral short comings of octo mom? Discussing what you believe is a huge part of who you are. A HUGE PART.

And don't get me wrong I'm in no way chastising you. Your the only other person who has come out and told me what you believe. The only one. One more time MLK Jr. just for fun.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

Thats what im talking about.



I think there's been quite a few other folks here that have.

Unno, i grew up going to church, my parents are members, my dad converted in in 20's my mothers parents converted when my mother was 5.
It's all i've ever known. I go to church, when i was younger  i went to the programs my church had for youth etc. But all through it I never actually had that moment of "ZOMG!!! it's true!! hallelujah!!!". It was more gradual, building on the knowledge i had.  I struggle sometimes, I admit. I don't always do the things i'm suppose to and while i believe in God, i sometimes feel like I don't matter.  There have been things that i have gone through that noone should have to.  And while thats no excuse, it's still in the back of my mind.  So, as a believer or what have you, I still ask the same questions these guys seem to be asking, "like why, if God loves us does this happen?...etc".
Also, the things I've been taught and FOUND out for myself make sense (i dont want you dudes thinking i'm brain washed or whatever).
Yes, I want people to know the truth, but I can't make them believe me when i tell them.
Who am I to tell someone that they are wrong and going to hell? (when i honestly dont believe that those who don't believe will go to Hell, because in my religion, we don't technically believe in the whole "fire and brimstone" hell most christians are so fond of)
Who am I to sit here, at a computer, typing at people whom I've never met (mostly) and tell them that they are sinners, that they NEED to believe etc, when i don't even know them?
I can't make those judgements.
I also don't agree with mainstream Christianity either.  There is a LOT of confusion out there, yet everyone claims that what they know is from the bible. If everyone is reading the same bible then why are there so many interpretations of what scripture means?

I agree with Night too...I think the others have said what they believe, even if its a "I don't believe in God".

I want to be switzerland when it comes to religious discussion.

you could try pastafarian its the newest religion check it out, click the link! It will either open your mind to new things or melt your brain at the concept.

 http://www.venganza.org/

I keep seeing the words "truth" and "God" in the same sentence and it makes me sad to be a human.

I think there's been quite a few other folks here that have.
No, there has been a lot of people that have said what they do or don't believe on specific points. But, no one but ella has actually said here is my belief system (LDS). Even Thrun, who I assume is a naturalist based on what he has told me. Has not come out and said, what exactly he believes. You told me you believe in a God somewhere based on what you know about cosmology and astrophysics, but that doesn't constitute a belief system by which you judge all information you are given. Not that that is a big deal, I actual prefer it that way it makes asking questions or giving criticism about Christianity open to all points of view. (e.g.) Thrun said he doesn't believe in God so he doesn't blame him for anything, but If he had told me that prior he would not have not been able to ask me the the why doesn't God heal amputee's question in good conscience or with such fervor because I would have already know that wasn't a valid question to him based on his belief system.

Stay tuned night and friends, I'm writing a little (long) note right now about some Physics that will blow your trolling mind.  ;D

The only physics that you could post to blow my mind, happened tonight in Huskees stadium.

Guys I want every one to know that I just discovered time travel. I'm now 10^16 seconds younger than all of you saps still living in the future. I thought since it is unfair for just me to know how to do this, and we're talking about truth I'll teach you all how to travel through time too. If you have a bed or a tall chair next to you climb up on it, I'll pause so you can do it............ Congratulations! Fellow time travelers welcome back to what we call the “present” come lets tell the world what we have found! I can hear it now oh man Unno has really lost it. He is now a time traveling  messenger of Jesus this has to be a troll post.

Well I'm not crazy and it wasn't my idea I can't take credit for it. It was Einsteins.  He said “there is no distinction between time and space”. It is a property separate of our being. And as it turns out he was right.

Drop science- To educate or “school” someone.

There were two Atomic clocks made. Even better and more expensive than a Rolex. There the most accurate clocks we can make. Both are accurate up to better than one second in a million years. One is in Greenwich, England one is in Boulder, Colorado. Awesome inventions based on some serious science that would fry or brains so we won't touch on that. But, there turned out to be a problem, that had some smart people baffled for a long time. The one in Colorado ticks 5 micro seconds a year faster than the one in England. Call in the watchmakers there is a problem which one is right?! Answer they both are. You see Boulder sits at 5,400 ft altitude. Greenwich is at 80ft.  The time is not a clock problem the time is different at each place. You see if I had one of these clocks here and raised it next to me one meter the time that that clock was measuring would speed up by 1 part in 10^16. Not a big difference but it is measurable, predictable, and conformable. (It has been proven 14 different ways conformable up to 19 decimals.)

So what does that mean to you just sitting at your computer wonder if your actually going to have to take the time to read all this. It means that time is not what you think it is. It is a physical property. Effected in measurable ways by mass, gravity and acceleration/velocity. It also would seem to confirm Einsteins theory that there are other dimensions besides the 3 that we know. Don't let that term intimidate you. We were all taught in school that if you add up the angles of a triangle the angles will always equal 180degrees. Which is true, in the second dimension. If you add up a triangles angles and it has more than 180degrees that just means that it is in the next dimension the third (e.g. a triangle on a ball). So when we see time breaking the rules of what we know. Linear time travel only being able to go forward that means that were seeing, the indicator of the next dimension. That perhaps if there was someone who knew how to use those dimension like we do the third (we can go whatever direction we want) That they could move throughout time and in fact be in all time at once. Think of standing on line vs. standing inside a circle..... Funny that is exactly what God told us he does in scripture. That aside the knowledge that time has physical properties, has huge implications in the various scientific fields.


Now when scientist talk about “the big bang” or the “singularity” that started the universe as we know it. They just did Christianity the favor of confirming our beliefs that we had by simply by taking the Bible seriously. Of course they still hold to the ideal that First there was nothing and then it exploded. Because, they are trapped within the boundaries of there own belief system.

When Matthew Maury “the father of oceanography” was studying naval travel and navigation he was also studying the bible. Though he had serious doubts about it's accuracy he enjoyed studying it. So when he read Pslam 8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea,   whatever passes along the paths of the seas. That seemed to apply to his field of study, so he put it to the test.  Maury is to oceanography what Einstein was to physics. In 1855, Maury wrote the first textbook on modern oceanography, The Physical Geography of the Sea and Its Meteorology. In this work, Maury presented oceanography from a delightfully Christian view. He included Biblical passages of meteorological and other scientific importance, such as the Scripture quote from the book of Job (28:25) which refers to God’s making ‘the weight for the winds’. He explained the Biblical statement this way:
‘. . though the fact that the air has weight is here so distantly announced [in Job], philosophers never recognized the fact until within comparatively a recent period, and then it was proclaimed by them as a great discovery. Nevertheless, the fact was set forth as distinctly in the book of nature as it is in the book of revelation....'
He dominate this field of science by uncovering God's creation using God's word as his guide. He did discovered the “paths” underneath the sea's.

I could go on about the hundreds of other Christian scientist, who have done the same thing. Or the thousands that acknowledge there had to be a creator even though it may not be the God of the Bible. Or the Atheist scientist who continue to discover what we have believed all along by our study of scripture.

The point is is that there appears to be a basis of truth. So when I hear the usual mocking by contemporary scientist and its students. About how stupid we are for disagreeing with them about the age of the earth (which there estimates are always changing by the millions). Because of an ancient book. When they can prove (And they can I have seen it) That these solar systems are moving away from us at incredible speed (thought to be the speed of light). And they are trillions of miles/many light years away. Which by mathematical calculations would put the universe at roughly 16 billions years old. I put my trust in God and his word, and wait for God to say once again. 1Cor :Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

The theory: Edit* This theory of mine got dominated as I was using the idea of recessional velocity for my age basis a huge mistake on my part and pointed out in detail by Thrun.
When scientist talk about the universe and the age of it(that is constantly changing). They are thinking along the lines of time itself being a constant. Which is why I had to go through explaining to you the fact that it is not a constant. It is a physical property. That is effected by mass, velocity, and acceleration. Our knowledge of space is somewhat limited as to what we can experience but in their own words. They talk about theories: Black holes, dark matter, plasma, physical objects moving at the speed of light, infinite mass. All things we know effect time! We know that here on earth based on our gravity, mass, and acceleration. That an hour is an hour, a minute is a minute. Though we can see and measure the slight  difference that our own physical properties have on time. How can they possibly tell me, that the universe is 16 billion years old. When they by there own admission, can only guess the physical properties that govern the universe. If the entire universe had the same physical properties of our earth and solar system, then they could fairly judge the age of the cosmos based on it's distance from us. But, here on earth time is measurably changed if we move one meter up or down! What would happen if you moved something a trillion miles away at the speed of light that surrounded a gravitational force like that of what they believe a black holes has. Or the center, something moving that has infinite mass.
Well in light of some of the recent discoveries we're trying to work on what they call the “stretch factor” how much time itself varies through out the universe. While this is all speculative theoretical physics. The estimates of the stretch factor on how time would be effected in the cosmos is 10^12.

Just for fun to make a few scientist loath there own theories:
Lets adapt the exponential stretch factor to the singularity, to see how long the “big bang” took to make all things.
Lets take scientist estimate of the universe 16 billion multiply it for days 365 then divided it by the approximation of the stretch factor.

16,000,000,000
X
365
=5840,000,000,000 divided by 10^12 = 5.84 days

6 days. I could have skipped the (vastly simplified) math and read Genesis for you but we all know that that old book is just a bunch of made up stories not to be taken literally.


While you could spend your whole life learning and adapting these scientific principal most of us just want to play video games. So I would suggest some light reading instead. In Six Days : Why Fifty Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation or In the Beginning or  Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood. If you finish those and are hungry for more just let me know.


Night you asked a question way back that I never got to If all powerful God wanted you to know of his existence, why tell one, or a handful of humans, instead of everyone throughout time?  I could tell you about how we can see his creation and know he is God. Or point out that you know of both Christianity and the Bible so even by what you would see as indirect means you are given the truth. But I think I'll let Varg answer for me.  If there is a god, and im not saying there isnt, he has designed everything in such an orderly and scientific way that its hard to belive we have to rely on blind faith for much of anything, even belief in his own being.

dude unno my A.D.D prohibits me from reading your post. otherwise I would...

Oh man it is good come on I promise. Alright alright you got me I just tried to read it and didn't have enough time  ;D gime 5 min I'll put up a video with pretty sounds and pictures to help show you what I was talking about.

[yt=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3v-4rMMpnqA&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3v-4rMMpnqA&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/yt]

Thats really not an answer for me. I'm firm in the knowledge of God's existence.

Thats more a matter of question towards religion.


If Jesus is the only means through salvation, then that leaves quite a few people disenfranchised.
- The whole cord of peoples that hadn't heard of him since.
- All the people living prior to his time period.

Seems if Jesus is mandatory, then that suggests the Creator would be lacking in efficiency, as the most efficient way would be just to directly contact each individual.

Ella, have you heard of John Morgan?

Well there is a misunderstanding there. Jesus is the only means for salvation now, because no other sacrifice would be even close. It renders them meaningless. Before his time, people were given certain rules, on how to handle the fall of creation to live good godly lives. And when they fell short they sacrificed. God accepted that as righteousness.
Abraham believed in God based on what he saw around him in the world and it was counted towards him as righteousness. Meaning God forgave him his short comings because he realized the truth of God based on what he knew. God is just he would not turn away any that would truly seek to find him.
Jesus said he will not come back until the whole world has been told about him. Which were getting very close to accomplishing. There is story after story of missionaries going to secluded tribes. And finding people who tell them that they have been searching for God, because of creation and their own conscience. They reject the practice they were brought up in because they know it to be wrong. cannibalism, human sacrifice, or polytheist idols ect. That should be the very meaning of searching for God. Rejecting evil and searching for good.
However, your question is valid because it takes faith to believe that God would provide a way for everyone through out history who has saught after him a opportunity to know him on a personal level via Jesus or his word. He promises it to us in his word. And as I nor anyone else heard of him breaking a promise. I have faith that he keeps that one as well.

This objection of course can not be scientifically proven either way we would need a complete personal history of humanity. Nor is it true of our experience because I don't believe either of us can find anyone who we would ask "what do you know about Jesus?" and they would answer "Who"? It is a hypothetical question. What if there is someone out there now searching for goodness, truth and meaning in this life, but doesn't hear about the one true God? Do you know anyone who would fit that description?

Since his time on earth the testament of Jesus has been spread around the world. The bible in part or whole has been translated into more than 2,287 languages which that alone should be a testament to it's validity. If God did indeed want to spread the truth throughout the world. It is of course the best selling, most translated book of all time. The Bible is available in whole or in part to some 98 percent of the world's population in a language in which they are fluent.

It is true that if God would appear to each of us and say "hey Night here I AM." Who wouldn't believe in HIM? That goes into a plethora of theology about the nature of God and how he is set apart and the nature of our existence. Most importantly he gave us free will to choose to accept or reject him. When I say him I'm talking about truth as well. The bible talks about accepting the light given to you. Light being the knowledge of good and evil. If anyone rejects evil and searches for good he will find God. That is the promise.

John 3:19-20 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Sorry thats so long I appreciate all you who take the time to read through these post. There not simple issues and hard to talk about in short length.

So Night come on I'm dying to know you read that whole thing and I'll I got back is a objection to Jesus? Nothing on time or any of that stuff, no comment? I thought maybe people would find a study of the nature of time at least semi interesting? Oh well I try  ;D

Thats precisely my point.

You are telling me that God wants us to know of his existence, yet he goes about it third party through Jesus, which will be subject to scrutiny, since it's not direct representation.

And according to religion, not only is the message more imporant than suggesting that you should finish your vegetables, but rather, if you do not believe or understand the message then you are going to suffer for eternity?

And this is a message to be taken seriously via third party representation, and is not all encompassing to all people? are you kidding me?

The concept of Salvation through Jesus was not known for a great many peoples for a long time after the spread of Christianity.

How then do you justly account for the damnatian of Mesoamerican, Asian, Malaysian, Eurasian, Aboriginal peoples?

That sir is a logic hole. One of the Bible's many inconsistencies..

And as God is perfect as I know God to be, then that is not of God's message.

Jesus fucking christ, i was going to stay out of this thread and just read but your wall of text critted me for 4000 (physical) overkill. i popped my ahnk, here comes the windfurry reprisal.   Unno, that is not how the calculations of the age of the universe work.   Also the big bang didn't create shit, it was the expansion of everything.  Everything was there, it just expanded.  (no we don't have an idea of how yet, feel free to inject god in there until such a time as the info becomes available.  No, I still won't take your answer seriously) 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

I would bother to argue all this with you, but there's all ready a 30 part video series on youtube done by a guy that sounds like Alan Rickman. I keep waiting for him to say 'Yippie-ki-yay, motherfucker' but he never does.  Where he takes any creationist "science" and shreds it.  Much as http://www.talkorigins.org/ does. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY&feature=PlayList&p=AC3481305829426D&index=0&playnext=1

let's hear what Robert Price has to say about the stories in the bible compared to the stories that predate the new testament.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE6KqJjeE8A

If you doubt Mr Price's credentials, or his knowledge of the bible he is a former Baptist minister with doctorates both in the New Testament and Theology. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price

Here's more discussing about how large chunks of the bible are retelling the same myths that had been told before, or by other religions independently of the bible.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm

you can believe whatever the hell you want, but telling me that you are "dropping science" on us is typical of the intelectually dishonest tactics that plague Apologetics. 

 and to go back to what we were talking about with absolute morality and truth comming from god, his own comandments prove moral relativism. 

They tell us not to bear false witness, but there are pleanty of times when lying is the better thing to do. 

For instance, when your grandmother gives you a sweater you have no intention of wearing ever because it is fucking hideous but you thank her and put it on when she comes to visit anyways because it makes her happy.

Fuck it I am going to Godwin this thread, the people who hid Ann Frank?  Dirty filthy fucking liars.  But they were doing what was right. 

Abolitionists in the South who helped with the Underground Railroad?  LIARS, bearing false witness constantly.

Thou shalt not Kill?  There are times when it is the right thing to do. 


I'm sorry that your life was such a turd that it is hopeless with out god, I am glad that you have hope now.  Hope is a good thing.  What gives most of us godless heathens hope is that we think we have one shot at it so we'd better make it count.  Take those risks, have those adventures and be nice to people you see walking down the street because there is a lot to do and a short time to get it done. 


 

You are telling me that God wants us to know of his existence, yet he goes about it third party through Jesus, which will be subject to scrutiny, since it's not direct representation. No, he wants us to know based on a number of things the complexity of existence which you have so studiously discovered, His people the Jews then the Christians, the knowledge of good and evil, The person of Jesus ect.. Jesus is far from 3rd party he is the physical representation of God himself. Separate but equal. It is an impossible idea to comprehend because we as people would have no idea where to start. But Jesus was more than just a prophet or teacher. He was the Alpha and the Omega, the creator of all things.

And according to religion, not only is the message more imporant than suggesting that you should finish your vegetables, but rather, if you do not believe or understand the message then you are going to suffer for eternity? It is true and is the reason Christians are to work so hard to tell everyone about the truth of God. It is the weight of sin and God is the only just judge. You know the thirst for justice from your own life experience if someone robs you or murders a friend you want to see them caught and in prisoned to get there just punishment. This is slightly blasphemes but He will understand. Now pretend your God and you created everything for some people. Then those people rejected you, rejected good, and did nothing but evil. In fact some of them killed your only begotten son. God is not unjustly condemning. He is judging evil for what it is. Now understanding and accepting the superiority and judgement of Gos is one of the hardest things for atheist today to accept because we live in a culture that tells us the exact opposite.

and is not all encompassing to all people? are you kidding me?  The free gift of God is eternal life to all who would believe in him, no restrictions.

The concept of Salvation through Jesus was not known for a great many peoples for a long time after the spread of Christianity. Yes thats true but God was widely known before that, through the nation of Israel. Remember these people are not simply ignorant of the idea of God the were worshiping false Gods. They were not seeking good, they were worshiping sticks and metal. That let them do whatever evil they want. I think you may be separating the God of the old testament, from the God of the new. I think what might be missing is the fact that people don't have to see God to believe in him and never have. You didn't, I have experienced him but never physically seen him.  The bible teaches a lot about how the nature of God and how we couldn't stand in his presence we are not worthy, unless forgiven by him. We would simply die. It goes right back to fundamentally rejecting the evilness of man and seeking good. For who is good but God alone.

How then do you justly account for the damnatian of Mesoamerican, Asian, Malaysian, Eurasian, Aboriginal peoples? Well first of all thats not something I wouldn't possibly do or rightly answer only God can. I will not be judging he will, and justly by there works (Rev 22:12) But I will tell you By the end of the New Testament the chronicling of the spread of the Gospel and the story of Jesus had reached practically the whole province of Asia. Thats before 98A.D. incredibly fast. (Acts 19:26 and others). That DOES NOT MEAN that only people in those areas could be saved. Gods word is fraught with the stories of God saving just people, who lived amongst people who rejected truth.


That sir is a logic hole.  Well, while I obviously disagree. It is a excellent argument form a human perspective. The truth is we can not understand the ways of God and know how his will is done. You don't have to believe in the bible to realize that you can just go outside and look up. A huge part of humility and Christianity is accepting that God knows better than you, even in your own life. He always has and he always will. To say God's word isn't true because you personally have reservations about how he did, what he did. Would seem to indicate that if you were God you would have done it better. You can't possibly know that.  (I.E. appeared to all humanity and made them believe and respect you) Which in of itself would violate the reason God made us: freely given love and worship. Once again God promises when talking about salvation:

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8

One of the Bible's many inconsistencies.
Please sir elaborate  ;D

And as God is perfect as I know God to be, then that is not of God's message.
Night I very much respect your point of view, and you as a person. I have always have liked you. You got the fiya in ya. But I have to ask, you know of God. You know he is brilliant and perfect. Created this world and it's systems with mathematical precision yet flexibility to allow life to a degree we can't comprehend. Made the cosmos in a way we can only begin to figure out. Do you think he would go through all that trouble to watch us sit on a rock and decay? Or does the obvious work he put into this place and humanity not indicate that he might want more from you than just a tip of your hat in his direction, acknowledging he is there. Maybe he wants to know you personally? Who are we that God would go through all that trouble?

 So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.[/b] Even now we are his prized possession, not some meaningless lump of cells forgotten by there creator left to fend for themselves on planet he cares nothing about. We are the prized possession of ALMIGHTY GOD! To the extent that he shares in our suffering with us, is willing to look past our sins, our disbelief, our shortcomings, and offer us at the cost of Jesus Christ death on the cross forgiveness of all of our trangressions if we just ask him. Psalms 145:18 The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth. If you just call on his name he is there, what other creature can make such a claim that him who created all things is at his call? Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation!? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

Hypocrisy crits you for 89000

LOL welcome back Thrun! BTW I would love to meet up and talk mysteries of the universe with you but I can't grow facial hair. Your beard would do all the talking and I would loose any subsequent argument by default.  But of course next time I'm around those parts I'll have to stop in and ask you what you know about the Lord.

Unno, that is not how the calculations of the age of the universe work. Ouch thats true. +1 I made an assumption based on how they used to measure the age by measuring recessional velocities. I was glad that was in, the Theory section of my post.  ;D Bear in mind the rest of it is completely valid. And may have application as well to the radiation dating of Gamma rays.
It is obvious I need to renew my subscription to scientific American. I'm more than happy to admit when my scientific theories are wrong.  ;)

you can believe whatever the hell you want, but telling me that you are "dropping science" on us is typical of the intelectually dishonest tactics that plague Apologetics.  The dilation of time points are completely valid. The section I clearly marked as my theory is obviously a misunderstanding on my part. Don't try to make it out like I'm somehow being purposely intellectually dishonest.  :(

the people who hid Ann Frank?  Dirty filthy fucking liars.  But they were doing what was right.  Doing what was right based on what? The sanctity of human life? It certainly wasn't survival of the fittest. Please elaborate.Is there a basis of judging right from wrong apart from naturalist principals?


 Everything was there, it just expanded.
That would violate the laws of thermo dynamics = heat death.

Thou shalt not Kill?  There are times when it is the right thing to do.   Touche` I thought this might come up. The proper translation is not kill it is Thou shall not murder. Killing is deemed necessary through a number of different situations through out the bible wars, punishment ect. So in essence your right if God told us not to kill anyone ever it would be hypocritical. It is murder HE is talking about.


They tell us not to bear false witness, but there are pleanty of times when lying is the better thing to do.  

For instance, when your grandmother gives you a sweater you have no intention of wearing ever because it is fucking hideous but you thank her and put it on when she comes to visit anyways because it makes her happy Thats not a lie thats respecting your elders another biblical principal. Your actually wearing that hideous sweater because you love her.

What gives most of us godless heathens hope is that we think we have one shot at it so we'd better make it count.  Take those risks, have those adventures and be nice to people you see walking down the street because there is a lot to do and a short time to get it done.  

So those those born with terminal illnesses have no hope. If hope is based on time, your hope is fleeting just as quickly as the clock ticks. There is a lot to do? What is there to do? That would indicate that you have some purpose that needs to be fulfilled? What is it? To experience all the great things in life. Then what hope do people have that are disabled and can't, or born into oppression. What can they hope for?

Welcome back I missed you! Honestly I was afraid you might not come back after that post sat there for a few hours. We have a lot more to talk about, and you can set me straight as far as my misguided theories go. And that was a whirlwind post in which you promptly dominated my theory I had come up with with obvious lacking contemporary knowledge. I got PWNT you should feel good about that.

He is only the Alpha and the Omega as a result of Constantine's accord, not by God's command.
You could just as easily be believing opposite that now, if the politics of the day suited Constantine in favor of Arianism at Nicaea.



Christians work hard or else they are damned.
They are but gears to a sado-masachist machine.
They along with almost all other major religions have hijacked the concepts and truth of God, and politicized it to be a self interesting machine, or else it's participants burn eternally.
And for those that associate closely, or are inside such religions that do not believe in God, they profit at the expense of the lambs.

You must think me overbearing in this judgement, but with your own words you have acknowledged this fact when christians boast that the bible is the best selling book as an arguement point.

which leads to this quote..


Apparently it's not free, and there are restrictions... money.

Religions are false, and true followers should bare shame at the thought of such books as the Bible and Koran at the top of best sellers. If such religions were true, then they would be at the bottom of the list.

I've never known God to need money


You do realize the visage of God you are trying to impress with this statement right? You are suggesting that an omniscient God created us just to torment us eternally, knowing in advance that we would go against him.

But for the sake of argument, lets say that your visage of God is how he actually is..


1. If God is Jesus, then God is hypocritical in that he, as Jesus suggests to turn the other cheek.

2. If it is God's son, then it is not God. This is another contradiction in the bible, which supports the notion of Arianism. They never did get around to cleaning that one up after the council, or else God would be pissed because you killed him and not his son.






What? You just were referencing God from his perspective, in killing his son, now you will not?

Well since you are selectively cherrypicking questions, I will tell you the answer. If going by the tenants of Christianity, Jesus is the only way to salvation, and people outside the initial sphere of that knowledge have just been sentenced to damnation.

Otherwise Jesus being the only way to salvation is FALSE.   This is logic and cannot be refuted.

This then means that a great host of people throughout history, that have not been fortunate enough to roll the dice and land within the sphere of christianity are burning in hell eternally.


This is referencing Asia Minor, not Oriental Asia. Asia Minor is essentially Anatolia going into Iranian area.


And I don't need a Bible nor Christianity to come to that conclusion. In fact the better part of my understanding of God came after I left the machine that is religion.





I'll enlighten you on my knowledge of God in such matters as to the "decay" of people, but only if you would genuinly care.

i am of the belief that if people actually saw God, they still wouldn't believe.
Same with Christ.
faith is to hope for things which are not seen which are true.  You can't have real faith if you have actually SEEN something, if there is proof etc...it makes it NOT faith.  

also, the BIG BANG....
I don't believe God can create things out of nothing...it defies all laws of nature, God did however organise matter to "create" things.

and jester, I haven't heard of that guy.

Christians work hard or else they are damned.
Thats not true. Perhaps you have heard it said salvation is not by works. There is nothing you can do to save yourself. Nothing. We works because we want to, not because we have to.

Apparently it's not free, and there are restrictions... money.
Can I quote my first post? God is not a set of rules, he doesn't need your money and he isn't some distant being not paying attention you.  Why would God need your money? Answer is he doesn't. We give to further the cause of Christ of our own freewill. We recognize that God is the one who blesses us with everything so we, give back by sacrificing some of what we earned. You don't have to is our choice.
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion... 2nd Corin 9:7
And trust me we are not charging anyone for bibles unless they want to buy them. Gideons, bible league, any church, Christian homeless shelter, oversees missions all free.

You do realize the visage of God you are trying to impress with this statement right? You are suggesting that an omniscient God created us just to torment us eternally, knowing in advance that we would go against him. Did he have full foreknowledge of what was going to happen, he did. The fall of man and spiral into a sinful nature, denying the very work of his hand? Yes, he did but because of his great love for us who would believe and love him, he allowed free will into the world Knowing full well the work, grief, and sacrifice he would have to go through to recover his lost sheep. To say that our hope and salvation did it just so he could torment people. Comes from not knowing the true nature of God.

If God is Jesus, then God is hypocritical in that he, as Jesus suggests to turn the other cheek Well obviously a man judging and taking revenge is a lot different than  omniscient, omnipotent God justly judging that aside. He does turn the other cheek over and over and over again every time you sin against him. That is why there is a delay in judgment so we might come to repentance. If God didn't turn the other cheek we wouldn't last long.

You just were referencing God from his perspective, in killing his son, now you will not?
pointing out a brief perspective of our known actions against God and asking me to tell you the inner most thoughts and reasons God does what he does are two vastly different things. One is knowable one is not.

Well since you are selectively cherrypicking questions, I answered all your questions  ;D

Otherwise Jesus being the only way to salvation is FALSE.   This is logic and cannot be refuted. Unless of course Jesus and God are one in the same. No one maintains that you had to call on the name of Jesus for salvation before he was made know. Not the bible, not christianity.  Which leads into If it is God's son, then it is not God. I'll get to this tomorrow. Promise.


And I don't need a Bible nor Christianity to come to that conclusion. In fact the better part of my understanding of God came after I left the machine that is religion. I still maintained you can not know God beyond acknowledging the need for his existence, beside some way of discovering his nature= His word. As far as Christianity ya it is a sad state of affairs. The message of  Christ has been hijacked by every evil scheme known to man. The only way to stay strong is to trust in God and measure everything you hear against his holy word.


I'll enlighten you on my knowledge of God in such matters as to the "decay" of people, but only if you would genuinly care.  Of course please enlighten me. Pretty sure thats the reason I'm here is to talk about that sort of thing :-)

Ok that was harsh, but unno is putting forth the idea that you have to have god in order to have hope.

How is me putting the forth that being nice to people is hypocritical? monkeys don't need god to be alturistic and neither do polar bears and dogs.
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Or are you just saying a I am an asshole to everyone all the time?

I am not sure who uses mechanics of the theory of evolution as a basis for their moral code but that's not it's intended purpose.  But from a naturalist perspective altruism exists because as a species we wouldn't have lasted long had we not been concerned with what happened to other humans.  The ones that were the best at playing nice with each other grouped up and survived.    Human life isn't necessarily sacred, but as a human I do have a vested interest in the life of other humans.


You keep using that word interchangeably with 'guess' despite efforts to show you what a theory is when it applies to science.  So come on, that is being a little dishonest with yourself.  I don't need to be proud of myself or a pat on the back to explaining to you this stuff, it's just part of the discussion. 


You've already admitted that the Bible is subject to misinterpretation, why would god be vague about a pretty important rule?  how do you really know that is what HE is talking about?


One of the more gentle, and intelligent well rounded people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing was a guy named Travis.  He was born with cystic fibrosis.  Wasn't supposed to make it much past 16.  Last I checked he'll be turning 29 or 30 this Christmas. Contstantly in and out of the hospital and having to go through regiments that I would call torture just to keep living.   You'd probably have to ask him where he finds his hope himself but I do know he is full of it and it isn't coming from Jesus.  Having a shorter clock doesn't preclude you from living a full life.

As far as purpose, my main one seems to be maximizing pleasure while minimizing pain.  I've got all these neat chemicals in my brain that tell me when something sucks and when something feels good.   Things like companionship, learning something new, seeing something new, music and keeping generally busy give me the good feeling.  Things like getting my ass kicked and stagnation seem to give me the bad feelings.

From a biological perspective the purpose of life is to make more life, so far I have decided to obtain from it.  I will probably continue to do so since it's more responsibility then I care to take on. 

If you are looking for some sort of 'big purpose'  I don't have one, not sure I ever will.  I've searched around a few places and found more questions then answers. 


No, this is a misunderstanding of what the laws of thermodynamics actually mean.  Remember, we are dealing with TOTAL entropy not LOCAL entropy.

Here's a fairly good laymen's explanation

Entropy always increases over time. The early universe was very smooth and uniform. This is a highly ordered [low entropy] state. It is now wrinkled and lumpy, a lower ordered [high entropy] state. Think of it as a perfectly made bed sheet [high order]. Once you sleep on it the sheet gets wrinkled [low order]. There are many more wrinkled states available than perfectly smooth states.

I am not sure who uses mechanics of the theory of evolution as a basis for their moral code but that's not it's intended purpose.  Hitler, Stalin, Mao... you get the idea. You can't say you actually believe in something and deny it's implications.

But from a naturalist perspective altruism exists because as a species we wouldn't have lasted long had we not been concerned with what happened to other humans.  The ones that were the best at playing nice with each other grouped up and survived.    .  I fundamentally disagree on your assertion of altruism based on survival of the species. History has proved that our survival is based on who is willing to kill the most people that disagree with them, and in how horrific a manner. That is every kingdom, nation and war, we have ever known. We are self centered creatures. We are not a world power because the president goes and has tickle fights with Kim jong il. We are a world power because were rich we like it and if you try to mess with us or or money we will kill you and everyone you ever loved. Is it extreme yes, is it cruel yes, is it reality, absolutely. These other countries who have publicly stated they wan't america to burn are not attacking us for one reason and one reason only, not because there altruistic.

Human life isn't necessarily sacred, but as a human I do have a vested interest in the life of other humans Well I have to ask why humans why not dog's or cows?

You've already admitted that the Bible is subject to misinterpretation, why would god be vague about a pretty important rule?  how do you really know that is what HE is talking about?  Thats why it is important to understand all of God's word. He is in no way vague given the context of the rest of his word.If for some reason you had an older bible that had thou shalt not kill in it vs thou shalt not murder. You may be mislead based on that one verse. However if you had any biblical knowledge at all about the history of God or Israel and there laws, it would be apparent that the text was speaking about murder.

As far as purpose, my main one seems to be maximizing pleasure while minimizing pain.  The purpose of life = to minimize pain. I'm sorry to hear that is what it comes down to. Out of no lack of respect for you Thrun because you are leaps and bounds beyond many of the people I know who go through life not knowing or caring what they believe. Might I suggest that...and keeping generally busy give me the good feeling.  Is how most people ignore reality and end up never asking themselves what there purpose is. Because if you were to actively get involved in the world around you. You would be forced to ask the big questions in life.

From a biological perspective the purpose of life is to make more life All of you assertions of hope and meaning exclude groups of people. What about those that can not bear children? There is only one hope that could encompass all humanity that could be true for everyone.

If you are looking for some sort of 'big purpose'  I don't have one, not sure I ever will.  I've searched around a few places and found more questions then answers.   Keep searching, the very fact that you would state your searching for such a meaning would indicate to me the God given desire to find him. Obviously that probably makes you mad that I would relate your personal feelings to theology. But, everything points in that direction. Humanity/politics, microbiology, cosmology, all the way down to your own personal existence and feelings. The need for hope and meaning. The knowledge of good and evil.


Entropy always increases over time.  So you then acknowledge things are continually going from a state of order to disorder defying the theory of macro evolution? The only field of science where this law is given no heed.


I liked hearing about your friend Travis I would be personally interested in talking to him and asking him those very questions. Having a shorter clock doesn't preclude you from living a full life. That was indeed my point and a biblical principal (given we have a clear definition of what a full life is.) But to make that point you have to know what purpose is and what you have hope for in the future. For someone like Travis if he has hope only in the flesh then he knows his hope is lost, as we all do since we are all terminal just on different time lines.

I realize that hope and meaning are difficult subjects from a naturalist perspective. Because by it's very definition there is no hope in anything but nature. And we all know nature is not eternal that we will die, our earth will die, and our sun will die. If you follow that belief system through to its logical end. You end up where Aldoran is "You want to know what purpose, what comfort there is? There isn't one. We live life alone, die alone, and are judged by those who know us. There is no purpose in life or death, which makes the evils men do that much more horrible."

Oh dear unno, for every leader you can name that supposedly used natuarlistic excuses for their rise to power and their atrocitiess I can throw out a few dozen that used religion and god for the same means.  Let's not play that game.  Though I did read an interesting book on why they were able to do so, regardless of what excuse they were using.  It's called the Lucifer Principle.  It's a good read but a thick one.


I won't ever argue that there aren't flaws in human nature, and that we aren't selfish and capable of horrid things.  There are just as many selfish motivations that drive me to be part of a society as altruistic ones.  I get a huge benefit from team work with other people and it greatly increases my quality of life. So there is certainly a selfish drive there.  If we hadn't been motivated to work together early on then we wouldn't have made it long enough to build a world where we were capable of these levels of violence, or conversely beauty.  It's  a balance between the good and bad.  


I do have a vested interest in the survival of cows, I use them for food. I have a vested interest in the welfare of other animals because we have seen time and time again what can happen if a species is wiped out from or introduced to an environment.  I place a higher value on human life because I am a human.  I'm sure if I could form the same bonds with a cow, or have lasting conversations with one such as these I would reassess my desire to eat him.  


You are dodging the question here, if you admit that the bible has been subject to misinterpretation how do YOU know what HE is talking about?  Is you and your generation the first one to get the interpretation of it 100% right?


What makes you think I don't know or care what I believe?  I am pretty firm in my belief that I have no answers to what happens to me when I die, and neither does anyone else.  How am I not actively involved in the world around me? I work, read, make art, help those around me when I can, help my mother take care of her sick brothers and sisters, play with my nephews and try to teach them what I can when I can.  I mean granted I am not curing cancer or writing the next Sgt Pepper's, but I've made a few heads bang and made life easier for everyone I can.


Your perceptions of entropy, order and disorder are again skewed locally.  Thermo dynamics deals with TOTAL entropy.  
This is a fairly clear cut explanation as to why not only do these laws have nothing to do with the type of order you are talking about, as well as even if they did they wouldn't be a violation. I only keep harping on this site because everything has situations to encourage further learning and show you how these answers are derived.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo


As far as saying that some one who is infertile is purposeless, that is silly.  It's just that life has a biological need to reproduce itself.  It's one of the criteria for calling something alive.   People and animals that can't breed still have the same impulses to do so, they are just shooting blanks.  I think you confuse purpose with hope.  I can lead a perfectly purposeless existence and still have plenty of hopes.  I've been doing so for about 29 years now, and you may or may not know this but I come from a religious family. -catholics- The only reason I could convince my parents to buy me a bass guitar since I had quit all other instruments they tried to force on me up to that point, was because I was going to play in my friend's youth group band on Wednesday nights for their Pentecostal services.  I can still play I've got a reason to shout if you'd like to hear it. I think I've forgotten how to play My god is an awesome god.  

I know some people like to use personal hardships and tragedies as a reason to turn away from religion, or to turn to it.  Believe me I have had my share of these as I am sure everyone else has.  While my decision not to participate in religion is a personal choice, I can assure you that it was arrived at with reason and thought and continues to be thought about on a fairly regular basis. I'm not rejecting your idea of god because of something I feel he personally did or didn't do for people around me, on a whim or out of petty spite.

It's weird, because I know my perceptions seem fatalist to you since I believe the only thing I can be certain about is the finite, and so I must do what I can to enjoy the finite then worry about the infinite if I am ever presented with it.  But the way you describe your version of hope sounds really bleak and awful to me.  I find it really, really off putting that there is no joy with out some divine intervention.

I also find the idea of existing forever terrifying, and really when I think about the size of our universe and just how long billions and billions of years are it keeps me up at night sometimes.  I like having a finish line for me, granted I think a 5000 year finish line might be a little more fun since i could see somethings that I'm not gonna but forever is way way way too long.  

Time doesn't change the higher up you go.  That's nonsense.  

If you go straight up and remain at the exact same longitude, time neither speeds up nor slows down.  This is because we minced up the passage of time into equal units (seconds) based on the duration of the Earth's rotation and assuming the earth rotates evenly and isn't like the jelly in a fucking lava lamp, a line can be drawn straight out from the center of the world and all points along that line will take the same amount of time to complete a full rotation, though the points closer to the center will obviously have a lower linear velocity.  The clock in Colorado might certainly be ticking faster, and it might certainly have something to do with altitude, but we don't say that water boils faster in Colorado because time is fucking quicker, now do we?  Lifting something up it changes time...bullocks.

The change in time is indeed minute. That you would not notice, or effect your personal being. But the change is measurable. Don't talk to me talk to Einstein or some of the other scientist testing this stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation The whole thing is long but, I would suggest you looking into the Experimental confirmation section.

Look into, subatomic particles called Pion's experiments at CERN have measured time dilation effects. And muons they are created by cosmic ray interaction with the upper atmosphere.  Interesting stuff.

See I knew that someone had to find that as incredible as I did. While we are obviously very limited in or knowledge and ability to do experiments to show large scale time dilation.  Word on the street is NASA has proposed an experiment. A probe in the near future that will use earth's and the sun's gravity wells to hopefully prove relativity and make it law. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/index.html

Min. 27
Det. 13

Favre 2 TD and record 271 con. starts

(http://blog.ingamenow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/touchdown_jesus1.jpg)

Truth in this.  Einsteins "Special Theory of Relativity" is all about time going slower the closer you are to a body of gravity or the closer to the speed of light you travel.  This is why Back to the Future is total shit.  88 mph will do crap for you even if you do have a "Flux Capacitor"....  Bill and Ted's use of wormholes is a far better chance for time travel IMO. 
The difference in the speed of time between something at the core of the earth and say the Hubble Space telescope is infinitesimal.  Maybe one day, let's say 2012, someone maybe named Mike Myers will learn how to time travel and cause the new beginning the Mayans dictated in their calander but until then time is yet out of our reach.

A little less blasphemy, a little more about beliefs of humanity's decaying state.  ;D

well seeing as Notre Dame stadium has it. its okay to submit
ladys and gentlemen the orginal touchdown jesus!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre_Dame_Stadium
(http://www.40acressports.com/wp-images/notre-dame-stadium.jpg)

Time is a really interesting concept when you think about it, since we are all living in the past. We as human beings perceive thing we see based off the light that has been reflected off them.  So no matter how short the time span is that it took light to come from my computer monitor to my eyes, I am still seeing what happened a millionth of a second ago not what is happening at the actual present.

When you apply this shit to astronomy it gets even more mind blowing, the fact that you are seeing billions of years ago not seeing what the universe in that particular point looks like presently.  Makes my mind go 'pop'

 

I just stood up. I'm younger.

Did you gain mass?  Enough of that shit and your time will slow right down. 

Yah, that always gets me too.  I'm always amazed at the fact that if you could somehow go faster than the speed of light you could look back on earth and see the past. 
The movie "Sunshine" goes a little more into the whole gravity/speed time slowing thing and its just a good movie.

Oh dear unno, for every leader you can name that supposedly used natuarlistic excuses for their rise to power and their atrocitiess I can throw out a few dozen that used religion and god for the same means.  But that wasn't the question was it? You asked I am not sure who uses mechanics of the theory of evolution as a basis for their moral code Did you simply not know of these people? Or do you still hold to the idea that the theory of evolution is something you can believe in without believing in it's moral applications.


I'm sure if I could form the same bonds with a cow, or have lasting conversations with one such as these I would reassess my desire to eat him.   Thats what I was getting at the differentiation of consciousness is why you feel a connection. You realize that no other animal has the consciousness that we have in all the animal kingdom. You don't think for a moment they might be able to carry on a conversation, or enjoy a movie with you. You don't find a cow and ask it if it minds if you kill it and eat it. Why? because you know that there is no way one could be conscious on our level. Seeing as according to the evolutionist time line. Mammals are fairly new kids on the block you would think that you find our level of consciousness elsewhere. Obviously completely unique, and odd that not even a semblance of it is found in our closest "ancestor". (describing consciousness is hard as all other species are obviously "conscious" there should be more phrases to describe level of conciseness. Just saying.)

You are dodging the question here, if you admit that the bible has been subject to misinterpretation how do YOU know what HE is talking about?  Is you and your generation the first one to get the interpretation of it 100% right?
Oh my bad let me slightly rephrase that statement.
We can know by understanding all of God's word. He is in no way vague given the context of the rest of his word.If for some reason you had an older bible that had thou shalt not kill in it vs thou shalt not murder. You may be mislead based on that one verse. However if you had any biblical knowledge at all about the history of God or Israel and there laws, it would be apparent that the text was speaking about murder.

If your asking an additional question of how, can we be sure there are not other minute translation errors like kill and murder. We have thousands of scrolls that contain the original Hebrew and Greek translations. Check out the blueletterbible.org we can do in minutes what it took people previous days to do.



What makes you think I don't know or care what I believe? 
Out of no lack of respect for you Thrun because you are leaps and bounds beyond many of the people I know who go through life not knowing or caring what they believe.
LoL reread that for me :-D I was commending you for you knowledge on various subjects not chastising.

I only keep harping on this site because everything has situations to encourage further learning and show you how these answers are derived.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo This is the first time I actual visited it. I always assumed if it was something important or that you actually believed you would type it up and post it. After all you don't see me posting links to Christian websites saying here is your answer. I must say after as much as you talked it up I'm very disappointed at the website itself.

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things.
To say the sun is somehow responsible for increasing order as a proof for evolution is almost silly. The sun helps produce order only if you have teleonomy. Otherwise the sun aids in the decomposition or entropy.
Perhaps better put by Dr. John Ross of Harvard University.
there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics. Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems. … There is somehow associated with the field of far-from-equilibrium thermodynamics the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems. It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.

Open systems still have a tendency to disorder. There are special cases where local order can increase at the expense of greater disorder elsewhere. One case is crystallization. The other case is programmed machinery, that directs energy into maintaining and increasing complexity, at the expense of increased disorder elsewhere. Living things have such energy-converting machinery to make the complex structures of life.

I should make a website called talktalkorigins.com So I can post all the refuted statements so they don't have to look silly.


you may or may not know this but I come from a religious family. -catholics- The only reason I could convince my parents to buy me a bass guitar since I had quit all other instruments they tried to force on me up to that point, was because I was going to play in my friend's youth group band on Wednesday nights for their Pentecostal services.  I can still play I've got a reason to shout if you'd like to hear it. I think I've forgotten how to play My god is an awesome god.  Interesting back ground. I have a number of raised catholic friends, with similar experiences. Let me ask you if you don't mind answering a personal question. Do you feel like you were raised with a understandable knowledge of scripture or do you think it was more of a set of rules you were taught. I'm not going to extrapolate any theology form this. I ask because my raised catholic friends, have indept knowledge of how mass works ect... The man made religion. But if I ask them a question in detail about the nature of God based on scripture, they tend to not know what I'm talking about.

I'm not rejecting your idea of god because of something I feel he personally did or didn't do for people around me, on a whim or out of petty spite.

It's weird, because I know my perceptions seem fatalist to you since I believe the only thing I can be certain about is the finite, and so I must do what I can to enjoy the finite then worry about the infinite if I am ever presented with it.  But the way you describe your version of hope sounds really bleak and awful to me.  I find it really, really off putting that there is no joy with out some divine intervention. Well you can certainly hope for finite things, without divine intervention. And there is of course happiness, friendship, booze  ;D . But as you said these things are all finite. God engineered in us a strong desire to understand the "big picture" beyond what we know. I mean thats the entire field of science to understand what we don't. It drives us. It is the reason you would want to gear up and try a new raid, because you already know every boss of the one you have done 1000 times. Your not truly happy, simply excepting the things given to you without looking past the known into the unknown. I can tell by what you know about biology and cosmology you weren't happy with what you knew and your quest for that WHY? knowledge continues. As does mine.
Honestly and I know this is going to sound like some cheesy, testimony you hear on the god channel. The reason I talk about hope, joy, and meaning the way I do is because I have experienced both sides. And NOTHING compares to having the eternal hope in Jesus. And I know if I can get people who are only hoping that life doesn't throw them to many curve balls and they can work 40 hours a week and get drunk with there friends on their days off. To stop and look past the next few days and into the lens of the eternal. They will realize that there is something missing. I know because I did.

I also find the idea of existing forever terrifying, and really when I think about the size of our universe and just how long billions and billions of years are it keeps me up at night sometimes.  I like having a finish line for me, granted I think a 5000 year finish line might be a little more fun since i could see somethings that I'm not gonna but forever is way way way too long.   Dude I'm so with you. I used to stay up for ungodly amounts of time, worrying. I can not imagined being entertained for eternity. It tore at my soul. I would get bored. I felt trapped, trapped in the paradigm of eternity with no escape. One of the first things I did when I came into a true relationship with my creator is I asked him to take that from me, that fear. I have not had a sleepless night because of it since. I put my trust in him that he wouldn't make me an eternal soul if I wouldn't have wanted it. Then one night his word really spoke to me. I was reading JJohn 14 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. The guy who created everything we know and can discover in 6 days is creating a place for me? And has been since he left earth? If it were not so he would not have told me. If it would be something that might get boring he would not have told me. If it was something I could understand he would not have told me: No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him Nothing we can imagine, not our wildest dreams. If we can't comprehend what is in store for us. I can;t comprehend not wanting to be there.

Sorry for this long rant but I had to share that. Feel free to mock as you deem necessary.  ;D












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I am to drunk to reply to all of this now, so i will get to it in the morning, but if the John Ross you are talking about is the one that wrote one article for a chemical engineering magazine and you are being dishonest again.   John is as welcome as anyone else to write a paper on why thermodynamics applies to order as you are seeing it and let his peers review it.

But judging my the sites I find his name linked with  I am going to guess that it is another case of quote mining, based on my past experiences with such arguments and he isn't even aware of the argument you are putting forth or how the quote is being used to portray it.

Stop it unno, you are better then that.  

 

No you stop it. lol I will patiently wait for the booze to wear off and you to look into that further.  ;D

For educational purposes on the the belief in Jesus:


Who is Jesus? Jesus the prophet, the teacher, the man, the God? I want to clear up some of the misunderstanding currently encountered with people who do not know about Christ. Who he said he was, and who he is. One of the first and most understandable discrepancies is the term only begotten son. But how is he the only begotten son? God himself says we are all his children. What is missed is the term begotten. The only time this is used when referring to a son of God is when talking about Christ. The Hebrew in which it was written is monogenēs  which means sole or single thing caused to be. How can that be? That sound blasphemous as we were all created by God. You see Jesus was  the only thing caused to be by God's existence. Meaning that he always was and always will be. He is in fact an express image of God. The bible explains it like this.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it(...) The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1

You see God uses terms we can understand to relay a message that is something beyond or physical understanding it is a principal of God which we can't understand unless he explains it using humanistic terms. “The word” is a term here used to describe Jesus. The word /Jesus is God. Although separate from God the father. The word is the physical part of himself that he uses to do his will. While the holy spirit is the metaphysical. All three of these entities are the same but seperate. So when you here Jesus say no one comes to the father but through me. That is absolutely true. He is the physical representation of God, his word. Jesus is not just the God of the New testament and Christians only he is the God of the old testament and all of us. He is God period.

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. John 14

You are not the only one who was confused. Some of his disciples didn't understand until after the resurrection. So why is there such discrepancy? Because, Jesus said the Father is greater than I. He taught his disciples to pray “Our father who art in heaven.” Of course adding that he is our intermediary. In that he is the physical representation of God that intercedes for us to the Father. So where is the separation where does Jesus stop and the Father begin.
I think the best way to describe it in layman terms would be this.(remember not biblical this is my way of understanding something I can;t full comprehend)  If you knew all things, could see everything before it happened played out in it's entirety. You had all knowledge and understanding what would there be left to do? Why would you do anything? You wouldn't throw a paper airplane you would know exactly where it would go how it would fly, if wind was going to catch it. It would be meaningless. So we have Jesus who is a separate entity does nothing on his own, only the will and work of the father, has all his power, ability, and knowledge of the past present and future accept for select things which only the father knows.
Talking about the end of days: But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32

The trinity is a hard thing to understand after all what is like it? Nothing we know. But, God had spoken to us about it plainly since he was revealed that we might understand.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.  1John 5:7

There are lot's of people who don't believe that Jesus was in fact a physical representation of God. Anyone who acknowledges the historical figure of Jesus, but do not believe in his words, would fall into that category. That's why part of Arianism and others who claimed that Jesus was just a man were labeled heretics. They knew of the man but, didn't believe in him. You can't call yourself a Christian and not believe in the deity of Jesus.

Remember scripture was written before the corruption of Constantine, Arianism ect... Written by men who left everything followed Christ and his apostles. All except for John, gave their lives to tell his story. They had no ulterior motives.

Hmmm can't help myself must throw more fuel on the fire......... So how many commandments in the bible?

I reread the thread, and while I promised myself I was done I have to make a few observations, and I'll pose them in the form of questions for Unno.

Unno, I noted an offhand comment about Gays and Liberals you made earlier. These questions are meant for your opinions based on your religion's teachings, not an opinion of the will of god. (no "I can't speak for god" cop-outs, kthx.)

Do you believe Homosexuality is immoral, and is there a place for homosexuals in your god's heaven?

Do you believe that people who are "Pro-Choice" and are for keeping Abortion legal and safe, or who have had or performed abortions, have a place in your god's heaven?

Do you believe that only through a belief in Christ and an acceptance of Jesus as your lord and savior will you be allowed into Heaven?

If one is not allowed into Heaven, is the only alternative eternal torment?

If the job of Christians is to spread the word and save people from torment, what happens to those who reject those teachings? If I choose to remain a para-pagan agnostic with militant Atheist leanings after reading the word of god, will I be damned for eternity?

What about Edna Goldstein, the Orthodox Jewish lady down the street?

What about Ahmed Muhammed Kaleed, my high school chum? He's Muslim but went to the pentecostal church a few times when dating Cindy Mason, so he heard the word of god and the truth of Jesus but stayed Muslim. Is he fucked right now?

What about the hundred branches of Christianity? Which is right? As a catholic I was taught that there are sacraments and rules, observations and prayers, but we didn't do the whole "personal salvation" thing. We accepted big J as a part of the trinity, each no more or less important than the other, and we prayed to saints for intercession.

Are all the Catholics fucked? Or the Mormons? they have that whole extra bible and the thing with the guy and the tablets and stuff... They are pretty boned, right?

What about the Buddists, Taoists, Pagans, Wiccans, Druids, Atheists, polytheists (Greek pantheon worshipers, aztec revivalists, etc), and all the other believers (or not) out there who hear about Jesus, say "good for you" and then move on? Are they all banned from the Heaven of your understanding?



I addressed these questions to our resident Jesus-dude, but I invite everyone to consider them and reply.

It has no moral applications, and anyone who is trying to use it otherwise is doing the same thing that some one who uses a holy book to justify being a dick is doing.  Are you under the impression that with out your religion society would crumble and we would all turn in to heartless monsters raping and pillaging?  You also seem to confuse with survival of the fittest with survival of the most ruthless.  Barnacles are way more fit then me to survive where they do, and do so much better then I would.  Doesn't mean that I can't go smash 10,000 of the little buggers to be an asshole but it doesn't make me any more fit to survive in their world then I was before. 


Maybe not our level, but animals do have a consciousness and it's happened before with Neanderthals.  


I don't care about translation errors so much as interpretation errors. how do YOU know what HIS word is saying?  Since we know from past experience that the interpretations change over time, see lightning rods.  I can pull other examples if needed.


You seem to be under the impression that your perception of order has anything to do with the order the 2nd law is talking about.  

The second law concerns energy, not patterns of objects. The second law states that energy tends not to be restricted to one or a few energy levels in atoms and molecules, but to be dispersed to as many such levels as possible – rephrased in homely terms involving molecules, "Intense or concentrated energy tends to spread out and diffuse".

In that spreading-out process, macro objects sometimes are displaced and moved to random arrangements that humans subjectively define as "disorder". A violent wind not only can break a window in a building and blow the papers in an office all over a square mile, but also destroy the building itself. However, this is an incidental consequence of dispersing and spreading out of the energy in a tornado, not an event that is due to the innate nature or behavior of inanimate objects themselves in the absence of such an energy flow. Moving common objects around so they fall in disorder is a singular and accidental aspect of the universal tendency of energy to diffuse, not the general thrust or meaning or requirement of the second law that applies to objects.

The second law is a tendency, not an instantly effected edict. Its predictions might not come true for millions or billions of years. These kinds of delay are due to the second law being obstructed and hindered by what chemists call "activation energies". All the biochemicals in our bodies except inorganic substances are protected and kept from oxidation or other disastrous reaction by activation energies. Almost all the materials from which our orderly prized artifacts are made are similarly kept from rapid oxidation in air. The second law is a powerful generality, but it is often blocked (to our human advantage) in chemical substances, chemical reactions, and physical events in everyday life.
 
As far as talk origins, you don't have to take anything on talk orgins at it's word, the entire site is filled with citations to let you know how these conclusions have been arrived at.   And unless you are the smartest person ever and you've been wasting your potential up to this point, I don't think you are going to be able to amass a volume of research the likes of which they reference.  And if you did some how amass as much knowledge the collected works of thousands and thousands of scientists I'd be pretty effing amazed if you came to wildly different conclusions then the rest of them.  


I find finite hope to be much better then false hope. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and until such a time as the proof is made available I have no reason to believe any of the claims you or any one else makes about eternity.  


I was raised primarily to believe that there was a loving god and that I should give him praise and thanks, that the bible isn't necessarily to be interpreted literally but is a moral and spiritual guide.  


You stopped being afraid of it because you stopped thinking about it, one of the primary reasons religions existl is because they offer a security blanket for the thoughts that our brains can't handle very well on their own.  

I.E.  I like existing, not existing would suck.  Now I am worried.  But even worse, what about existing for ever?  Shit now I am really worried. Until your brain hears, "don't worry, dad's got it covered."  and pop you can shut it off.  I push shit out of my head all the time that I don't want to think about, it just crops up again sometimes or might take me a little longer because I never found proper solace in the 'don't worry, dad's got it covered' mantra.  

That's why it's called "faith." You must have faith in what you cannot see, or what cannot be proven. You have faith that all things are finite, but you have no proof of that. The fact that energy never dies and only changes form is direct proof against your beliefs. Both of you have hope and faith placed in a certain school of thought, and one day you will both find out who was "right," though it won't matter much then. You'll both be dirt and not know any better or one of you will be spending an eternity of misery and suffering. Despite what you believe right now, neither of you know the absolute truth. We choose to put our faith in things other men have told us, no matter what direction that leads you. Proof of that is that all either of you can do is quote what other men have studied or said.

I don't recall ever saying everything is finite, or if something I said could be interpreted that way.  I know that the world I see around me is finite though.  It doesn't take faith to be able to observe that people die, buildings crumble and friends come and go. This is why unno says the things I derive hope from are finite.  I'm pretty sure my entire point is based on not knowing or having the ability to know if any religions claims are ultimately true until it is too late. 

Saying that I have faith in my doubts is sort of like saying my favorite hobby is not collecting stamps. 

That may be so, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I think that what you see is so insignificantly small compared to all that actually exists it seems a bit silly to rely only on that. It's a weakness that most humans exhibit.   Faith becomes real when you step back and recognize that "You know what, most everything I see is finite but there has got to be more to it than that." The existence of a God or angels or demons is only a small part of that. But why stop there. There's an entire universe out there with things that we are simply unable to see, and even if we could we'd likely not understand.

Faith is just an admittance that you really have no clue how infinitely complicated even your small world around you really is. When you can admit that then you can actually see enough to search for what few small answers you'll be able to find.

Why does there have to be more to it then that, and what am I to have faith in since I have thousands of equally valid gods to chose from?

I have no clue as to why there has to be more, I just know there is. Your next question will be "Well how do you know?" Suffice it to say, that I have seen things and had experiences that are more than enough proof for me, but I seriously doubt they would translate well to you. Finding faith for yourself is only something you can do. I don't go looking to either prove or disprove anything. I choose to live my life with an open mind to all possibilities, and because of that I'm able to see things that are "invisible" to those that actively seek proof. That may sound a bit arrogant, but no more so than thinking that you see everything there could possibly be to see.

You can be confidently blind, but you're still blind.

And you can be confidently full of shit, but you're still full of shit.  If faith is personal and there is no right answer to the questions then there is no point in playing the game since I get the same benefit or lack there of no matter what I chose. 

I say there doesn't have to be anything else, why because I SAY SO!  NEANER NEANER I WIN!

I never asked you why you didn't believe there was anything more. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other what you believe. Whatever you choose to believe should benefit and enhance your life. If it doesn't then why the fuck believe in it?

Faith or the lack of is absolutely a personal choice. If it wasn't then you'd simply be blindly following something else. You have no clue if you get the same benefit, because you don't see what benefits I gain from my beliefs.

Just to make this clear, it is not a Christian's job to convert anyone. It's their job to spread the word. If those that hear it choose to follow it or not is entirely up to them. The God I believe in has clearly stated that once every man, woman, and child has heard the word of God the world will end.

It's commonly misunderstood by both Christan's and non-Christians alike that spreading the word means converting people. I do what I'm supposed to do despite whether or not the world thinks I'm full of shit. I'm not after human approval.

I think at this point we arguing over 6 or a half dozen.   I just like asking the question, why? and if the answer I get in return is 'because I said so'  I say 'meh' and wait for the next person to ask the question of.  It doesn't invalidate their personal beliefs or validate mine.  I'm a big fan of asking these questions over and over because it helps (me at least) evaluate why we all think what we do.

I have no doubt that this discussion with unno will only harden his faith in what he believes, just as it will harden my disbelief that I will know any answers to the questions I ask.  

If you really wanted to find out why, the answers are out there. If you're just asking the questions to spark debate that's easily done. Why for one person isn't why for another. There are very few absolutes in this world. If you look for an absolute reason "to believe" then you'll just chase your tail. It's really simple to disbelieve, because it's human nature.

This isn't going to be another one of those, the truth is in the bible things is it?  Because the god I believe in was very clear about Ragnarök in the Prose Edda.

No, I'm with you in that the Bible has become a very valuable tool or guide for life, but isn't the end all be all to the universe. It has it's place but I never found my answers there.

Well, then I go back to my default position of I don't know for sure and don't care because acknowledgement of a god has no benefit for me since I have no way of knowing what the truth is.

 

There is a difference between being unable to know what the truth is and not caring what the truth is. Which one fits you?

I'd like to think being unable to know fits me better, since I obviously care some what as I am willing to have conversations about it at great length with people.  Maybe don't know/abstaining from till I do fits me better?

Christian motivation is of self interest. Help others so you can help yourself from burning.
Membership would be much less significant without that terrorism tactic.

And while the foot troops are marching to the beat "saving" others, the captains and commanders reap the profits, driving fabulous cars, living in lavish houses.

If such a movement were genuine, to "spread the word" then you would see serious coordination between the leaders of such religions to carpet bomb free bibles from B-52's across the globe.

Instead, Pat Robertson wants to sell you a neon glow in the dark bible with gold trim for $39.95.
Money used to fund missionaries in Malaysia to spread to word to locals, so they will be more compliant when the 700 club wants to build that 18 hole golf course. Tee'in with Jesus. Hallelujah!

Of course the locals will get their share. They will get to work as caddie's and groundskeepers, and the more appealing and proper trim folk might get to staff the service desk.

You can always look into the exploitation of Native Americans through missionaries for confirmation on that.

I've been in retail for 7 years, and topping off the population at 100% to get your Jesus back is nothing but a merchandising tool.

And how about this cat Joel Olsten and Creflo A. Dollar and others like him that just straight up tell you through their interpretations of the Bible that God wants you to have wealth.  "you will see increase! you will see increase!".   Can't really argue against them since it's in the bible.

But oh knoes Night "its easier to drive a camel through the eye of a needle blah blah". Yeah? well they have a convincing arguement that God wants you to keep your wealth as he has blessed you, and is stated in the Bible.

The Bible has a point and counter point for EVERYTHING! resulting in excusings to do anything man wishes. 

It's unfortunate that such good people get drawn into the sado-masachist machine.

And for Catholics, the more responsible your rank in Church, the more you get torture yourself.
Must be nice to be told that your natural need to be with a woman is evil, so you get to beat yourself up every night with thoughts of being with another woman, or the guilty feeling of going to hell after you jack off.

For some that pressure even builds up to the point that somehow thats it's alleviation is transferred through molesting an alter boy.


Or how about for my parents which are Catholic, they sleep in separate rooms now because for years they have been waiting on my step father's first marriage in the Catholic church to be recinded...   Waiting on other flawed men to tell them that it's ok from God that they can sleep in the same bed, despite being married.

Catholicism in general is just fucked, with it's continued Greko-Roman tradition of Pantheon worship, with it's prayers to saints and Mary. That's Idolatry by it's own account.

It also worships a man in Rome who is above all others and is direct voice from God.
A position held by corrupt men whom have used their pawns for everything from political gains, to inciting a massacre in the middle east, citing that those that partake in the killings will enter heaven. This stated by Pope Urban II.


I think the biggest tragedy is that this overbearing beauracracy that is religion, is that it discourages many people who genuinely would search for the notion of God themselves. Instead we are left with jackasses with such notions as a flying spaghetti monster God, getting into debates with Jesus freaks over inconsistent or inconclusive information and evidence on either side.


I was once a gear in the motor of religion, though at some point I did something against it's doctrine... I thought for myself.

Different between myself and many others that when I spoke to Morpheus and took the pill, and left religion, I didn't let the oversaturation of false religion affect my reasoning on the existence of God.

Follow Einsteins rule of faith. Since you can neither prove or disprove the existance of God you may as well be a believer. If you end up being right you get all the benefits. If you're wrong you will be dead so it won't matter.

What the fuck do refuted inaccurate arguments from the 1600's
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

have to do with Einstein?

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

Wait, wait, wait. Did rando just whip you into a fury and make you admit that there is absolute truth?

I am not sure how you derive that from me asking what the point of choosing is since I have no way of knowing what Truth is or if it exists.  

Jesus, now that I look you are even farming me.  I understand only quoting part of the statement so that we can refernce what questions we are answering, but the last part you dropped off here is fairly important in the context of what I was talking about with Rando.  


I say there doesn't have to be anything else, why because I SAY SO!  NEANER NEANER I WIN!

What I am saying is the same things I have sad over and over.  One, being that 'cause i sad so' is a shit ass explanation to use in an argument.  
and two, there is no point in choosing a religion or god since I have no way of knowing if I picked the right one.  

Money in the church, hallelujah!

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Look at the size of that stadium, er church.

Lol I dont even think that there were that many people gathered when Jesus spoke

The collection plate runneth over

Ya the last point was important to Rando. But, you are "playing the game" are you not? If there was no Truth you wouldn't bother because there would be no point...right?

lol farming you ;) I'm just trying to keep you honest by pointing out your own logic.

Joel Olsteen preaches abundance through God, and of course the Olsteen's have to break a big piece off.

Here comes the sales pitch..
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Meanwhile millions of unemployed Americans struggle, not to mention the same song and dance of being dying across the globe of hunger, while the Osteen's live phat.

To say the sun is somehow responsible for increasing order as a proof for evolution is almost silly. The sun helps produce order only if you have teleonomy. Otherwise the sun aids in the decomposition or entropy.


You seem to be under the impression that your perception of order has anything to do with the order the 2nd law is talking about.  

The second law concerns energy, not patterns of objects. The second law states that energy tends not to be restricted to one or a few energy levels in atoms and molecules, but to be dispersed to as many such levels as possible – rephrased in homely terms involving molecules, "Intense or concentrated energy tends to spread out and diffuse".

In that spreading-out process, macro objects sometimes are displaced and moved to random arrangements that humans subjectively define as "disorder". A violent wind not only can break a window in a building and blow the papers in an office all over a square mile, but also destroy the building itself. However, this is an incidental consequence of dispersing and spreading out of the energy in a tornado, not an event that is due to the innate nature or behavior of inanimate objects themselves in the absence of such an energy flow. Moving common objects around so they fall in disorder is a singular and accidental aspect of the universal tendency of energy to diffuse, not the general thrust or meaning or requirement of the second law that applies to objects.

The second law is a tendency, not an instantly effected edict. Its predictions might not come true for millions or billions of years. These kinds of delay are due to the second law being obstructed and hindered by what chemists call "activation energies". All the biochemicals in our bodies except inorganic substances are protected and kept from oxidation or other disastrous reaction by activation energies. Almost all the materials from which our orderly prized artifacts are made are similarly kept from rapid oxidation in air. The second law is a powerful generality, but it is often blocked (to our human advantage) in chemical substances, chemical reactions, and physical events in everyday life.
 
As far as talk origins, you don't have to take anything on talk orgins at it's word, the entire site is filled with citations to let you know how these conclusions have been arrived at.   And unless you are the smartest person ever and you've been wasting your potential up to this point, I don't think you are going to be able to amass a volume of research the likes of which they reference.  And if you did some how amass as much knowledge the collected works of thousands and thousands of scientists I'd be pretty effing amazed if you came to wildly different conclusions then the rest of them.  

Wow did I just get a 4+ paragraph response, without a rebuttal to my points or providing me with any evidence to the contrary?

To say the sun is somehow responsible for increasing order as a proof for evolution is almost silly. The sun helps produce order only if you have teleonomy. Otherwise the sun aids in the decomposition or entropy.

Is this not true? Is there evidence to the contrary? I could quote Dr. Ross again but I don't think I have to. I recognize that the second law of thermodynamics states it exist in a isolated system. But, since it's origin in 1824 there have been many versions of the law and they all have the same effect, which is to explain the phenomenon of irreversibility in nature. Logical entropy in a closed system has decreased. This is the violation that people are getting at, when they say that life violates the second law of thermodynamics. This violation, the decrease of logical entropy in a closed system, must happen continually in the darwinian account of evolutionary progress. The only exception is when a purposeful intelligence intervenes or there is a teleonomic system in place.

If I'm wrong here please tell me how. If I'm not we can start looking for the creator.

Dear Night,
    Your ability to point out the peoples obvious evil intent and misuse of Christianity is dually noted. However, your unwillingness to listen to what The Bible says about such things and insert your own reality is disheartening. If that is where it stops for you that's fine. I have said it over and over again the biggest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians. Christians who don't live what they believe, and don't follow the words of God. You won't listen or acknowledge the truth of scripture because you would rather point out people who would pick your pocket in the name of Jesus. While their actions are inexcusable and disgusting, so is using them as an excuse to not look into something for yourself. Take the Bible for what it says, and not what people have made it say.
In Christ,
Unno


People would say that that sin doesn't exist. But only a fool would say there is no such thing as right or wrong.

People would say that God's judgment is wrong. But who of you wouldn't seek justice if you or a loved one were robbed or beaten or killed.

People would say man is not evil by nature. But, our history has always proved otherwise.

People would say that if you want to believe in anything, there is a God or a belief system for that. But, if you find a belief system that appeals to human nature what does that say about that belief? If truth exist there can be only one.

People would questions God's ability to keep his word? But, who has the knowledge to know such things. Who among you can provide evidence to the contrary.

People would tell you not to worry about the great unknown, but they seek the unknown constantly.

It has been said to many times why this God and not one of the others? What others!? The one that the pedophile hiding in a cave told you was telling him we need to kill everyone to accomplish some political mission? Is Allah not strong enough to do it himself?
The one that tells you that you are God? and the best thing you can ever hope for is non-existence?! The one that tells you that we will be reincarnated forever (which would require an eternal universe) and not to pay back anyone because they will get there's in the next life? The one that tells you there is no truth or right or wrong all roads lead to God? The one you can make up on your own based on your own understanding? How much do you know that you could understand God? The one that no one knows about anymore? Would God allow that to happen?

Or the ONE the ONLY ONE that preaches Christ crucified for your sins! That we are in a sinful state and need forgiveness. That God loves you and wants a personal relationship with you. That humanity has lost it's way. That God created the heavens and the earth. That there is truth. That he doesn't need anything from you, but you need him. That there will be justice, but that there is also a free gift of forgiveness at his own expense. Where is the alternative Jesus?! Where is the historical evidence for the life of another Messiah? Where are the millions of people willing to die, to tell other people about Krishna? I have said it before that there is a war going on for the souls of men. This is not a statement made in jest. There were 45 million Christians murdered in the 20th century. around 160,000 Christians have been killed every year since 1990. Not these rich devils selling "holy water" or preaching like an infomercial. I'm talking about real Christians who leave everything so that, one person might have the opportunity to hear about the ONE true God.
It was said in 63A.D.
 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
"This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'
 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
What other belief system corresponds with what we know about human nature, history, science. ect what other one corresponds with your personal understanding of reality.
You won't find forgiveness anywhere else, you won't find hope, you won't find a relationship anywhere else, you won't find salvation, you won't find truth and you definitely won't find true fulfillment anywhere else.

I have said it over and over again in the search for truth you come to one conclusion. This isn't some religious platitude or light statement. It is the truth. But, so many would ignore that all together in exchange for a belief system that lets them lead lives of sin. You would say God came just to condemn you, No Jesus came that you might have a chance at salvation.

Ya this goes against everything society would teach you. It goes against people who would tell you to find your own truth. But listen to me very carefully. If truth is found only an individual basis, then truth doesn't exist. If truth doesn't exist, then we are all to be pitied for the curse of consciousness.


Videos of people claiming the name of Jesus to do evil are abundant. If you want to take 5min and listen to a real Christian speak. Feel free. (one of my favs)
[yt=425,350]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6KQxceqeQrk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6KQxceqeQrk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/yt]

I stopped there...
Jesus is the literal Son of God. The physical son of God (alothough we do not know HOW this came to be, only that Christ needed to be both MORTAL and Immortal). He only could take upon him the sins of the world and conquer death. Death is not the end, but had this sacrifice not been paid we would have been cut off from God. This was essential to God's plan for us, that we might all return to live with God again.
We are, however, all SPIRIT children of God.  We lived with God before coming to this world.  we were beings without flesh, yet our Father had flesh. We wanted to be like him. The only way was the we go to earth and obtain physical bodies that can love and hurt, cry and laugh etc. We needed those experiences because without a physical body, we could not have them.
We could not return to God in our fallen state as we are not "perfect". This is where Christ makes intercession on our behalf.  We cannot possibly make our wrongs up to God, Christ alone has suffered the sins of the world to make that payment.  Justice and Mercy are satisfied through Christ. Justice calls for us to suffer for our wrong doings, Mercy would see us be free from suffering.  If we believe and come to Christ and do his will, he will allow his suffering to fufill our punishment.

Note: This is kind of deep doctrine, and I would appreciate it if noone calls it a bunch of nonsense.

doesn't that make you Agnostic and NOT Atheist?

Insert my own reality?

Proper text does not need clarity, nor a need for one to insert their own realities.


Now either you are being oblivious to my commentary, or you are starting to distort the facts, much like you did with the Homer statement some time back. I gotta hand it to you though, you've adapted to the machine fast enough to learn forging facts already :P

As stated, I was previously in religion.. Baptist to be specific. "Saved" and all. I had also previously attended catholic schools earlier in my life, so to say it's something I haven't looked into myself is really way off base.


The Bible suggests alot of things. Alot of things contrary

You can't murder, but you can kill. God loves all his children, but he hates his children that don't follow. eye for an eye, turn the other cheek. Jesus died for your sins to be washed away, yet those sins keep popping up. And on and on and on.. all throughout the book.


That said theres some sensible bits I practice from it.. the essential don't kill anyone (as is one of many interpretations), love thy neighbor, dont steal, dont lie on anyone that would be disadvantageous for them. Though all these could be associate with common morals and not necessarily have to be exerpt from the bible.


Evil is a matter of opinion.


Yeah, nothing except 10% of everything we have, our bodies, our souls, our fears, our attention.
Once you get past all that, the requirements scale back a bit.

True God has been hijacked in this regard.



Where's the historical evidence for the first Messiah?


Simultaneously theres a war going on for rational thinking.


More terrorism.


But that's ok man I will still love you, despite the fact you have come under mind control.
For someday you will open your eyes and see you are subjegated by rhetoric that seeks to dominate your capacity to appreciate your individuality.

A rhetoric that claims to unite all men, but divides them in their thoughts, as they try and discern who among them that are close, will go to heaven, and who will burn in hell. A rhetoric that divides men by encouraging elitism by creating a cosmic divide of the damned and the saved.

And some day you may beat that rhetoric, and find a vibrant free will, as given by God to think and reason and do for yourself. And you will find the reward in helping others when it's out of your own free will, and not motivated by fear or eternal self interest.

Only then can you start your journey of discovery for true God.

So

many

words

...

Indeed, so here's my real question.

Why is it when I hear or read something like "White momma takes dozens of black cocks" or "Let me watch you shit on a plate" it doesn't make me feel icky but when someone says something along the lines of "Ooooo! I like to smell stinky socks/pantyhose/armpits!"  it just kind of grosses me out?
Is nothing sacred anymore?

p.s. TD Jakes is my personal favorite preacher.

I respect the hell out of you for admiting that, it at least means that your questioning isn't completely from a stand point of "I'm going to fuck with everyone just to be difficult" but to potentially find answers.

If you're open to answers then they will present themselves eventually, but it likely won't come from arguing with anyone on the interwebs. I randomly found mine from a handful of butterflies on a camping trip. (No I'm not kidding and yes I do realize the mockery this will bring upon me but I could really give two shits)

Most of my answers end up coming from massive amounts of hallucinogens.  Ego Death is a hell of a ride. 

If it was good enough for my Native American brethren then it's good enough for me.

I honestly have no clue how you read any of that from what I have shown you about the 2nd law, it's almost like you are sticking your thumbs and saying neaner neaner.  Plus to quote princess bride, you keep using the word teleonomy but it does not mean what I think you think it means.  Since I am not assigning an apparent purpose to the sun, and even If i did it would be a purpose in hindsight and not actually valid.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13620-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions.html

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=441

http://www.2ndlaw.com/evolution.html

Ahem.

http://www.thewolverines.net/forums/index.php?topic=4822.msg48943#msg48943

Or is there a problem answering questions that would reveal a bit of modern Christian bigotry?

Just for fun. Also take note that all these questions are pointed at Christianity, so these are the beliefs of most Christian Doctrine.


According to the written word Homosexuality is immoral. Christianity teaches that there is a place for every single soul in heaven, should they choose to accept it. That being said, a lot of Christians are extremists and misconstrue personal fears and hatred as doctrine. They are just as bad as any other extremist.


See the answer to question number one.


This is most certainly one of the core principles of Christianity. Jesus Christ, Christianity. See any similarities?


In most Christian Doctrine it's one or the other, but there are exceptions. Catholics believe in Purgatory for example.


The job of Christians is to spread the word, saving yourself from eternal damnation is entirely up to you. It's a decision that you and only you can make. So According to Christian beliefs, if you choose to ignore the word of God after you read it, then yes you will spend an eternity in damnation


She doesn't accept Jesus Christ as her lord and savior so she's headed to the fiery pits. There's always time to repent however, so long as rapture doesn't happen right now.


This has the same answers as the two above it. Just because you hear the word of God doesn't mean you accept it. If you hear it but do not accept it you are damned until you do.



Your numbers are a bit off. There are over 2000 sects of Christianity in the U.S. alone, not counting however many others there are throughout the world. You're a horrible Catholic. Jesus is just as important in Catholicism as any of the other thousands of sects of Christianity. Without Jesus Christ there is no Christiantiy.


According to Christian beliefs if they accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior then they are not fucked. If they don't then they are. Why are you repeating the same question over and over with different names? It's not selective. Certain groups don't get in but others do. There are two groups, Saved and unsaved. Saved go to heaven unsaved go to hell. So once you've answered the first "Does ______ go to hell if he/she doesn't believe?" you've answered them all.


Yes they are.

A bigot implies there is hatred and intolerance which is not a wholly accept Christian attribute. Are there Christians who act on hatred and are unwilling to tolerate others because of their beliefs, absolutely. Is that what the bible teaches? No. Christians are not supposed to be judges or jurors. Every soul is judged the same by God and God alone. It is not our place as Christians to treat anyone with ill will because of their lifestyle choices.

It's just sad that because some choose to do so everyone is cast in the same negative light. Instead of basing your opinions on the actions of a few loud spoken flawed humans, do your own soul searching and learning to find out what the truth is.

As a note - I haven't practiced catholicism in over a decade, but I am pretty sure purgatory got ditched.  

Depends on where you go. It has been at some point considered an option so if I neglected to mention it I'd be nailed for it.

I'd like to reiterate something that Thun said earlier and has not been answered. If the god of the Christians is real, where is the proof, and please dont quote the bible because it is most definately not proof. Or as i said to my very christian mother once "show me your God I want to see him"
Sorry Thrun I know thats not exactly what you asked but the meaning is the same.

They aren't going to be able to furnish an answer because god exists on faith, no matter what religion you chose.  Which is why I abstain from the whole process.

to quote homer simpson,

"But Marge, what if we chose the wrong religion? Each week we just make God madder and madder. "

I'm rather fond of the Flanders quote "god I've tried to obey all your commandments even the ones that contradict each other"

Everyone has faith in something, even if it is your doubts. Proof is circumstantial and can be one thing to one person and something completely different for someone else. Why ask others for proof, are you incapable of finding it on your own?

I ask for proof because I want to understand, to know why things are the way they are, is not the very act of asking my attempt to find said proof? As to faith/belief the same can be said for scientific things we cannot see, for example atoms, how a flashlight works, how a car works, but these things can be proven and yet you cannot actually show me an atom can you? As for me my faith is in science, what can be proven time and again.

Science is also wrong time and time again, because it's performed by humans. Humans that make mistakes. Scientists struggle to find out what is real and to prove things, yet it may take them 100's of years to prove any one thing. Even then the proof is refuted 200 years later. Science while a very good, educational, earthly thing is not worthy of all of your trust.

But then again, you could say that something I can't prove isn't worthy of all of mine. That's why I say follow whatever gives you that peace and comfort. Whatever answers the questions the way you want them answered.

For some it's belief in an all mighty being that created our very existence. For others it's the science that attempts to find physical proof.

The bottom line is since both sides are controlled by humans, both have their flaws and short comings. For every one thing that science has proven, there are a million other things that it cannot. So you place your faith in the hopes that others will one day prove these things and I place mine on something that has been proven personally to me.

because religious folks are the ones making the claim, and all I ask is that if you claim something is true and expect me to believe it you'd better also give me a damn good reason.   

That is because science is a set of tools for trying to understand the world around us, not a set of preset ideas.   If the evidence points to one thing you go in that direction until evidence is found to the contrary. 

AMEN BROTHER!
 Uh I mean I agree with what Thrun said.

Your major mistake is that you think I expect you to believe it. I have quite the opposite expectation of you. It's not my job to make you believe. I just have to spread the word. It's up to you to find the proof if you want it. If not, peace and chicken grease my good man.

Religion is a set of tools as well, it's just trying to understand the supernatural world around us. To explain the things that science can't, yet. Tools for living life and being a good person. Is religion required in order to be good, absolutely not. But it does help some people. It gives them something other than men to put hope in. Men aren't worth much hope in my opinion. Scientists or not.

I've already had this argument once in this thread, attributing a god or a religion to the cause of something leads to stagnation and if we would have done so as human beings we'd all still be dying of small pox while our houses got struck by lightning.  

That doesn't mean I have to throw the baby out with the baptismal water so to speak, religion does serve a force for community and moral discussions. 

And your major mistake is that you are claiming to have the truth.   

That's only if you go along with the assumption that religion and science can't coexist. Which they can. Religion gives you the cause, science works to figure out the details of how it happened. You're right, if people place all their faith in one or the other they are equally misguided.

It's my personal truth. Where's your proof that it's not? You can't prove or disprove a personal truth. You asked questions and I answered them based on my personal truths.

What cause is religion giving me? And coexist they do, commingle they shouldn't.  It leads to bad science.  

1.  You can't be called upon to prove a negative, since it is impossible
2.  You claim that if I search i will find the truth, and that you are spreading the word of said truth.  Am I misreading your words?

Bad science is ignoring any possibility. No matter how fantastic or unlikely. You can't find the ultimate truth unless you look at all otpions.

I claim that if you search you will find the truth as it pertains and speaks to you. I spread the word of my truth as an example of someone who has found this personal truth.

here's a cute video that explains why that isn't true.
[yt=425,350]T69TOuqaqXI[/yt]

Meh, we are arguing 6 of one or half dozen of the other again.  I'm just of the opinion that since this is all personal and subjective that at this point in my existence I don't have a use for it.  Which in the end, is my truth.  

You said it yourself, anything claiming to have the truth better damn well be able to prove it. Without looking at all possibilites you can't claim to have done that.

Oh, then you don't have it either since the possibilities are endless.  Now we're both fucked.  

I also hope you understand the horrible hypocrisy in claiming that the truth is personal, and that you have it and that I couldn't possibly have it. 

Well you can't have my personal truth. Why would you want it? Yours would be much better suited to you. I don't need to prove my personal  truth to you. It's been proven undoubtedly to me.

Great! Then we are in agreement!  You don't need to prove it, and I don't need to hear about it!

Religion=Kissing Hank's Ass

[yt=425,350]fDp7pkEcJVQ[/yt]

Pretty much fucking awesome JT

Convey's my words in one kickass vid.

Haven't you heard?  God is in the face of every laughing child.  He is in the voice of every mother when they say "I love you".  Seriously, read a Halmark card once in a while.

NOOOOOOO! HALLMARK IS THE DEVIL"S TOOL! jk

"Mother is the word for god on the lips and hearts of all children" I think i got that quote right.

Actually I just like to argue about religion even tho I am not a christian i do believe in something greater than what science can currently explain, just not the god of the christian, he's a dick. Anyone who tells his follwers to " go in and possess the land, ,kill all that you find there" yeah even i he was the "ONE TRUE GOD!" i wouldn't worship him.

One of my favorites......


http://www.thewolverines.net/forums/index.php?topic=938.0

Teleonomy-The principle that the body's structures and functions serve an overall purpose, as in assuring the survival of the organism.
teleonomic systems- systems operating on the basis of a program of coded information.
These are the definitions. I found some crackpot dictionary some guy named webster that tacked on via evolution to the definition of Teleonomy, but that just points out the bias we see in todays society.

Look I'll try one more time to ask a straight question and get a straight answer. If your going to simply tell me I don't understand, link a few obviously unbiased websites ;D , and not provide any kind of rebuttal thats fine. But, we can't very well move on with a topic about evolutionary process if you can't provide evidence to the latter or admit the obvious gap in evolutionary theory.

Does the law of entropy apply to both open, closed, and isolated systems?

Are any fields of science not subject to the law of entropy?

Are there any known violations of the law of entropy?

Are the formation of ordered, low-entropy structures at sufficiently low temperatures, able to explain the formation of biological structures?

What would be required for evolution to start in spite of the law of entropy?

As stated, I was previously in religion.. Baptist to be specific. "Saved" and all. I had also previously attended catholic schools earlier in my life, so to say it's something I haven't looked into myself is really way off base.
Attending church does not mean you know the word fo God as you have so obviously pointed out. If you did you would know the answers to your own objections, by realizing that these teachings of man are not biblical.

As far as contradictions in the Bible. Thats not true the bible is very specific, on some points. For some reason you see them as a contradiction.
You can't murder, but you can kill.
Do not murder. As in premeditated the Greek verb phoneuō is actually in the future tense. Planning to kill someone for anything but...
The specificity of the times where killing is justified is to much to write down. It even gives specific instenses of how it should be handle if you accidental kill some one, how to handle, war, the death penalty ect.. This specificity is only a contradiction if you don't know the word.

God loves all his children, but he hates his children that don't follow. God hates sin and the sinners. Sin is a separation from God, and his love. His love is there but separated from you by sin. In fact he displays his love=  For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  God's love for you is still there displayed in an incredible way. To reject him is to reject his love.

eye for an eye, turn the other cheek I love this one. The Old testament was in large a set of rules in which to govern a country, Israel. If we had a country full of people that shared the same belief system perfect justice eye for eye ect.. would be ideal. When Christ came we are no longer dealing with the political laws the govern a country, but the rules for going out into the world to witness. His clarification of this law and how it would apply from then on out was direct. As examples of Christ to the world we submit to injustice just as he did.

Jesus died for your sins to be washed away, yet those sins keep popping up.  Thats not biblical at all. If you are forgiven your sins by God. He no longer holds them against you.  "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Evil is a matter of opinion. Then you have no basis for calling anything evil or good it is just your opinion. If I may: If all evil is opinion, then the statement "Evil is a matter of opinion" would be absolutely true.  If it is absolutely true, then not all things are opinion and the statement that "Evil is a matter of opinion" is false.

Where's the historical evidence for the first Messiah?
Jewish historian Flavius Josephus- Josephus became the Roman emperor's adviser on Jewish affairs, and died in about 98 AD. In his writings, Josephus mentions the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Herodians. He mentions Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, John the Baptist, Jesus and James the brother of Jesus.

Julius Africanus- composed a History of the World down to around ad. 220 in five volumes. In one of the surviving fragments, Julius discussed the three-hour darkness which occurred at the crucifixion of Jesus.

Tacitus- was a Roman historian. His 'Annals', written about 115 AD, mention the emperor Nero's persecution of the followers of Christ in Rome in AD 64. He talks in specificity about his crucification. His writings correspond exactly with what the bible says. And the wide spread of Christianity.

Pliny ('Pliny the younger')- was the governor of the Roman province of Bithynia, in present-day Turkey. In about 112 AD, he wrote (in Epistles X.96) to the emperor Trajan, asking for advice on how to deal with the followers of Christ in his province, because he was executing so many of them. He also discusses Christians worshiping Jesus as God.

Suetonius- was a Roman historian and an official under the emperor Hadrian. In his 'Life of Claudius', he talks about expulsion of Christians   described by Luke in Acts chapter 18 verse 2.

The Babylonian Talmud- believed to be finished about 6th century A.D. Talks about 'Yeshu the Nazarene' Jesus of Nazareth ior all those not familiar with Hebrew.  Described Jesus as someone who engaged in sorcery. lol He details of the death of Jesus correspond with the biblical account. Timing of passover ect...

Mara Bar-Serapion- was a Syrian who wrote a letter to his son, sometime between the late first century and early third century. This letter is now in the British Museum. Talks about Jesus the "wise king" and how the Jews put him to death. Excerpt:  What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after this that their kingdom was abolished. Of course this corresponds with the know history of the timing of Jesus on earth and the destruction of Jerusalem.

These are all non-biblical, non-Christian, references for your benefit. If for some reason you want to look into the plethora of wittings by Christians of the time. You just let me know.  ;D







A rhetoric that claims to unite all men,  AH Night,
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Take it easy turbo not a physical sword  ;D. He is talking about the division that will come from following him. He also says that the world will hate you because of me. Unite all men? I think you might be reading the wrong book?
Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.- Jesus 31 A.D.

At what point did I, or anyone else imply that the sun serves any over all purpose.  You are assigning purpose to it in hindsight, because we have life on this planet that thrives from the energy it puts off.  The sun would still be doing it's thing regardless of Earth.  The links I provided are in no way biased.  

When you don't have an understanding of what the 2nd law actually says, or it's implications I am left with no choice but to explain to you that you don't understand what the 2nd law means or it's implications.   Repeatedly trying to force refuted arguments is common in creationist literature, and frankly is one of the reasons why no one takes you guys seriously in academia.

Does the law of entropy apply to both open, closed, and isolated systems?  
No, isolated.  

Are any fields of science not subject to the law of entropy?
Not that I am aware of, but it's implications are most often applied in chemistry and engineering from my understanding.  

Are there any known violations of the law of entropy?
That's a tricky question, but not that I am aware of. Though as hot systems cool down in accordance with the second law, it is not unusual for them to undergo spontaneous symmetry breaking, i.e. for structure to spontaneously appear as the temperature drops below a critical threshold.

Are the formation of ordered, low-entropy structures at sufficiently low temperatures, able to explain the formation of biological structures?
This seems like a loaded question, if you are trying to bait something out about abiogenesis remember that the theory of evolution has nothing to do with how life arose, only what has happened to it since it did.  So if you could, please elaborate on this question for me.  

What would be required for evolution to start in spite of the law of entropy?
Evolution isn't doing anything in spit of the law of entropy, so this question makes no sense.




and sorry, I just noticed this one


I don't see how I am playing the game, since I remain unaffiliated still and can say with as much certianty as I have about anything that I will remain unafillated when ever this discussion draws to a halt. 

So men are flawed as are their interpretations of the Bible, wait, since men wrote the Bible doesn't that mean it is flawed as well? or were they perfect?  :P


Oh yeah? you are fixing to get blasted so hard for that comment, you won't have the ability to counter (unless you shape the facts like you did with Homer). I will append to the bottom.



Lmao, just let you know so you can cherry pick that info from wikipedia again?

here's your source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Pliny_the_Younger to which you left out the notations of contraditions, discrepencies and such..

You even distorted the statements from wikipedia.. lets compare:

Yours


Wikipedia:

you left out that Mara mentioned he was one of the 3 wise men, and that there was no mention of his resurrection..  obviously done to keep from casting doubt on the source,

hmm lets see what else you tried to do here..

Oh if you are going to reference the Talmud, then you would have to accept that Yeshu was hanged and not crucified, and he only had five disciples, and from the looks of it they all died.

hmm, pretty much nothing here is credible. Josephus legitimacy is disputed, did you not read that lengthy section after the excerpt about the validity of his words?

Also I don't know if this is directed to the Pliney or Tacitus, but theres a flag for the whole section's authenticity -  "This article's factual accuracy is disputed. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. (February 2009) "

Tacitus didnt even source his info, so he could have just passed on what other christians were saying. Also some of those entries are really about christians and not on christ. You are just using those a filler to try and make a more pronounced statement, but I dont need evidence that christians exist, they are here now.

Anyways, you get where this is going..


Not a physical sword? It's not even a factual statement, so no worries on "turbo" getting worked up here :)


Damn, Jesus not giving peace now?


Alright, here we go contradictions:


God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.


War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The bat is not a bird
LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Rabbits do not chew their cud
LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

"Gerah," the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated "chew the cud" in the KJV is more exactly "bring up the cud." Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.

Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Moses' personality
NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."

Righteous live?
PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."


ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."


Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."


Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Years of famine
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;

Moved David to anger?
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.

God be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)


CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)


Tempts?
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)

Ascend to heaven
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)

How many times did the cock crow?
MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.


Does every man sin?
1KI 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2CH 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Who bought potter's field
ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

Who bears guilt?
GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Do you answer a fool?
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

Good deeds
Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)

For or against?
MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)

This is just some of them, but its rather lengthy now as it is. I can list more if need be, or you can check for yourself and start here http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html

exactly.......

Oh arguing on the internet is fun, though if I had some one to ask me to come to bed at the moment I would save the arguments for morning.  

lol QFT. It feels good blasting Unno though  ;D

i still say rhat it's 6 and not half a dozen...

Also, Thrun if you don't want to hear it don't ask the questions or jump in the debate. If you do it implies that while you don't "have" to hear it you want to.

lmao, that actually happened as I was posting and I quote "Honey are you done there, I want you to come to bed with me"
have to admit going to bed with my wife was more fun than staying om computer tho.

You put forth the claim that you needed to spread the truth, and that you had it.  Then you claimed that your truth was yours and I have no use for it.  

Which is it?  

Either your truth needs spread to others and is the Truth with a big T, or your truth is yours and it is useless to me.  Can't be both.  

Don't put words in my mouth. I said I needed to spread the word. The truth is up to each individual to find.

The word of what?  What does the word say, and what claims does the word make?  

and now that I think about it, what good is this word anyways if Truth is still left to the individual? 

I'm still waiting for answers to my post on page 15, I wonder if the pro-Christians missed it or dodged it?

/em taps foot

Did you ignore the post where I answered them all?

I guarantee that if you read back over this thread all of those questions have been answered. In fact you've been arguing against the responses to those questions for most of this thread.

What the hell is up with you two. It's like this thread started on this page.

I only see one reference to you saying "the word" and you never seem to clearly state what that word is, or why it is to be believed, or why it is of any use to anyone ever. 

do I have to do everything myself?
[yt=425,350]2WNrx2jq184[/yt]

The "word" is the word of the God that you choose not to believe in. That's the word. I figured as smart as you were you wouldn't need me to explain that to you. It seems fairly obvious by all the posts in this thread.

You have no proof that it is the word of god, and by saying that it is you are going back on your claim that the truth is personal and not universal.   I wouldn't need a translator or explanations if you didn't try to argue in circles. 



 

Sorry I missed that post, Dunno how that happened, as I'm normally quite observant...

So, according to Rando's version of Christianity, Faggots who don't give up the dick and accept Jesus burn in hell. Along with EVERYONE ELSE who didn't pick the right religion.

Per google:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
33% of the world's population are "Christian" that's an estimated  1.8 to 2.2 Billion people.

Per another source (http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html#religions ) Christianity clocks in approximately 2,199,817,400 folks, of which 1,121,516,000 are Catholic and damned to hell for not accepting Jesus as a personal savior*.

That leaves approximately 1,078,301,400 people of Christian faiths, some of which I'm sure you'd consider hellbound, folks that are gay, pro-choice, or otherwise believe differently than you can accept. BUT, for the sake of argument, let's assume the petty hatred for gays and liberals is a bit overblown, and your god is, indeed, merciful enough to allow every Christian who accepts Jesus into their heart (even if they're dirty faggots and baby killers) into heaven.

Knowing the population of this world is approximately 6,786,048,644 souls, and knowing that an Inflated number of "safe" Christians is appx. 1,078,301,400, we then can do some grade school math and see that... Only 15.88% of the Earth's population is a candidate for heaven.

Your Loving god grants eternal life to 84.12% of the population only to condemn them to fiery torment for all of eternity!

What kind of sick fucking deity could do that?

Your "truth" is a bit fucked up, man. You can strut around knowing your god is loving and good all you want, but remember, by following this god you are condoning his actions, and as anyone can tell you after seeing any Conan movie, followers of evil gods are often beheaded and fed to giant snakes.




*Catholics don't play with all that Personal pan Jesus shit, we have sacraments like baptism, confession, communion, and intercession by saints to handle all that stuff.

Again, with the silly proof argument. You're right, no one can prove what is or is not the word of God, since all that is physically visible was written and interpreted by man. Personal feeling is something completly different. If a deity can create all existence, then surely he is able to speak to people as he wishes. My personal truth, was the word of God as told to me by him. How he did that is something only I experienced at the time. The written word of god, is a road map to help you be open to hearing God when he speaks to you. Not everyone needs it. I didn't.

I believe that there is only one true God, but that isn't all I believe. I also feel there are many lesser deities people refer to as god's, but they were not the creators and life bringers. I believe that the ever so misunderstood "truth" is something that changes from person to person and is found in many different ways unique to every individual.

I believe the word of God is available for anyone as long as they are willing to see it. How you achieve that I can't answer as it changes for everyone.

The bottom line is, it takes faith. A faith you are curious about or you wouldn't so dutifully try to find holes in my logic, even if they aren't there. Faith isn't something someone can explain to you, it's a feeling. Either you have it or you don't. I'm not sure what you're looking for in this thread, but if it's to convince me that I'm wrong you're just as likely to succeed as I am in convincing you.

If god is omnipotent and omnipresent don't you think his truth is going to vary just as much as the beliefs humans have about him? There isn't one singular way to find truth, but when you find it it's up to you to accept it.

Most skeptics don't like religious debates nd find them flawed because there is no right answer. There are no right answers but there are most certainly wrong ones.

Who said that's my version of Christianity? You ask questions about Christianity and I answered them based on what most Christians believe. Also, I don't much appreciate you twisting my words around, I haven't done that to your responses.

No, I didn't say that if "faggots" accept Jesus but don't give up dicks they go to hell. On the contrary. Once you accept Jesus you're in heaven. That's it. You will be held accountable for your actions, as in having to answer to God himself for each sin, but that doesn't mean you don't get in.

You're painting a picture of me that is way off base. I don't judge any man or woman. I have no place as I'm just as flawed as any of them. That's God's job. God is loving and merciful, but he is also vengeful.

In fact, until you do some reading and researching on your own I'm not going any further on your statements. All the basic doctrine is out there for you to read. Go have a look at what things actually say then come back for some good conversation. Don't make assumptions about all of Christianity then judge God based on them. Christiantiy like everything else was created by humans to worship God, meaning it's got it's flaws.

No religion is perfect, or 100% right for that matter.

awe but you missed some of my favorites like "snails don't melt", and  "Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt" how could i have been so blind.

You can't give me that big long hippy love fest diatribe and then tell me there are wrong answers.  Especially when all your answers are a matter of opinion. 

I don't need you to admit you are wrong, the only thing I am trying to beat out of you is whether you truly believe that you have the ONLY answer to the question and how much that answer matters in the end.  And then if you do have the ONLY answer why anyone else should believe that. 

meh, you're going to burn in a lake fire for being a pantheist anyways. 

There's only one way to get into heaven. That's part of the "truth" as everyone keeps calling it. I have found that way, though how I came to it is different than what you will find.

I'll save you a seat next to the lake side.

What should this thread be renamed?

Religious Argumnet on the Internet? (If it offends you feel free to quit reading)

My suggestion.

Yeah those are pretty stupid.

Just rhetoric from fervent atheists that want to drum out and little micro detail on the matter. And a few of them that are alledgedly contradicting, really don't make the case.

Really, it's about the major issues that define the inconsistencies, which are unnerving.

Please sir indulge my misunderstanding once more, and give an example of the laws of entropy being violated in an open system? If in fact it only applies to isolated systems. (or just see question 3)

Interesting since there are no know exceptions of this law that they would most often apply it to two fields. The truth is it is applied to all fields.
See next question.

Gladly, see your answer to the above question where you said i.e. for structure to spontaneously appear as the temperature drops below a critical threshold. This is in direct reference to that. While these formations are in fact not in violation of the law of entropy they are the very examples your website pointed out as order coming from entropy. In an attempt to account for the possibility of the evolutionary process, despite the law of entropy. When used in that context, it is in fact a reference to the chance of the principals that create "dissipative structures" allowing for the possibility of biological advancement.


The law of increasing entropy is a universal law of decreasing complexity, whereas evolution is supposed to be a universal law of increasing complexity. How can you being intellectually honest with me say that evolution does not indeed violate this law? Even other evolutionist wouldn't agree with you.

"How can the forces of biological development and the forces of physical degeneration be operating at cross purposes? It would take, of course, a far greater mind than mine even to attempt to penetrate this riddle. I can only pose the question - because it seems to me the question most worth asking and working upon with all our intellectual and scientific resources." -Evolutionist Sydney Harris, "Second Law of Thermodynamics." nationally syndicated column in the San Francisco Examiner on January 27, 1984.

We have all evolutionist and creationist alike been asking this question for years. Yet we still have no answers. In fact we have scientist instead of hypothesizing and testing. Are actually perpetuating dead arguments.

If you want to have faith that there is an answer out there despite the evidence, thats fine. I can actually relate very much to that point of view. But, I think it is unfair to continually tell me I just don't understand.

hehe Wikipedia was not my source. Why, because it is not a citable source as anyone can add what they want to it. Using it as a source of information, is almost as asinine as using it as a source for rebuttal.  ;D Oh wait wait wait my mind was just blown and I have to rethink everything I know about the physics of earth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

Im sorry but I have to laugh when you point out these people didn't believe in the deity of Christ but listed him among other wise men, or discussed putting to death his followers, who they thought followed the sorcerer Jesus. These are non-biblical, non-Christian references. Or did you miss that part? We will talk about this in more detail, when I have some time off to write this weekend.


Honestly Night I'm disappointed and encouraged at the same time. Have you actually run out of arguments of why you believe the Bible not to be true? Or is your beleif system now based on what you can Google?  I'm not going to bother responding to copy and paste arguments based not on what you know. But, what the internet would tell you. I will be more than happy to discuss any of these "contradictions". If there are any you actually believe to be true contradictions after looking into them. Spamming me with questions to the point that I would have to devote hours to typing is not how you win an argument. That is how you grasp at straws when you got nothing else.

HAHAH! ROFL!!   Dude I just 'bout fell out of my chair laughing haha

I knew you couldn't counter the last post I made, but come on, you are going to use your own system of rational against me?

You are now going to criticize me for taking what I can Google on the internet for information, for it's validity, yet you are going to cite contradicting works from people hundreds of years, and thousands of years ago? Did I just read that? seriously? REALLY??!!

My sourcing of the internet, a tool with us here today, cannot compete with a book that has changed hands,  and translations, and quite honestly just changed through many men for centuries?

And this impure internets with it's Google, you have never used that to present cases for argument in this thread, in favor of your stance?

Dude.... c'mon dude. I love you man, but you have to realize how silly you look right now.



lol and you aren't devoting hours to typing now? Those weren't questions I posted, those were facts.


And you sir, have just been dunked on..

(http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/BPBOmKh9kOI/0.jpg)

I still love you though  ;)

ROFLMAO!

Quote mining something a god damn news paper writer wrote 25 years ago and trying to pass it off as evidence of anything is pretty much the last straw in me ever discussing anything with you.

If you are going to try to provide evidence or support for a claim about the natural world you need to be looking at current research, and articles written by people in the actual fields that study what the hell you are looking in to.  Not what a fucking syndicated columnist said while you were still shitting your pants and sucking on titties.

Here's a pretty good debate between P.Z Meyers, and a Creationist where PZ spends the first 5 minutes explaining why no ever really wants to talk to them and how to act right.  Then the rest of the debate explaining why the dude who claims to be an expert on whale fossils, but can't name any, is a fucking moron.  

http://www.kkmslive.com/MP3/15013108-Simmons%20&%20Myers.MP3

I'll see you in the other threads with the lulz

alright guys its getting a little heated in here so i am gonna cool it off with some related humor before knightstalker starts pointing out spelling errors and peoples minds blow up because no one knows where life came from.


[yt=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/etc9aHnCtsk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/etc9aHnCtsk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/yt]

lmao.

And no, Im not heated. I dont hold any grudges against unno, come on

Fuck you all Julia Child has all the answers, she's cooking primordial soup.  
[yt=425,350]7pt0rIZ3ZNE[/yt]



Also, the experiment in here clearly defies the laws of thermodynamics as Unno understands them, since all they did was add some fucking energy and they got more complex structures out of it. 

IT'S UNPOSSIBLE!

Comedy and Julia Child? Friendly discussions? I hereby declare that this thread has been Hijacked, getting back to the topic originally intended...

There is no god. Discuss.

Incorrect.

Discuss.

Counter point

Discuss

Exhaustive list of reasons why you're wrong.

Discuss

Rebuttal and retort.

Discuss
[yt=425,350]zSgiXGELjbc[/yt]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197#

Discuss.

(this video is graphic at points, and very deep, if this bothers you i wouldnt click)

Really Varg


Now back to the discussion

God real, delusional, or a lie
 
Discuss

Hmm.... why do we have to say his/her/it's name is god?  Could it just be the creator, the designer, the fabricator?  I mean honestly.... if you want to believe that something HAD to start all this by pushing an atom here or there, then certainly anybody could call this whatever it is whatever they want.

discuss what? looks like a bunch of smug assholes who think they are really smart and want to get rid of religion.

I dont see "God" as a name, but rather a position or such really.

You can go with the Creator, the head cheese, whatever.

Perhaps they are really smart and they just appear smug and assholey to you because you disagree with their stance.  This is a normal reaction when one's superstitions feel threatened.

In fact, that's pretty much what this entire thread is: Knee-jerk superstition defense.  

Hear ye! Hear ye! I declare it to be irrefutable fact that my soul, insofar as we can conceive of such things given our cognitive inability to decipher the great depths and complexities of the Universe surrounding, was birthed into my consciousness-less body through my most sacred orifice upon consuming my first box of Kraft^tm macaroni and cheese.  It only stands to reason then (and I will not have my convictions swayed in this regard), that Kraft^tm is my true Lord and Savior and it's subsidiaries, both domestic and abroad, are the apostles of my faith.  Make no claim otherwise, and I will not further pursue my unending desire to publicly chastise you for being a smug asshole.  Challenge my well-documented, allegory-based belief system and I will bring this forum to its proverbial electronic knees with mile-long posts laced with only the finest internet snark!!!  SNARK, I SAY!

lol Thrun I hope this was in jest :-). I appreciate the humor, and I want to let you know that I know how much it sucks to have your belief system constantly questioned. As a Bible believing Christian I feel like I have a PHD in taking constant crap. But, you being a scientific minded person I felt it was necessary to point out one of the major problems in Darwinism. As someone seeking to know and refute creationist apologetics would you have preferred I not point it out?

As far as it violating the law of entropy. I did mention teleonomic systems, which in my head I thought I had my bases covered. But that only applies to biology. Perhaps better put as the law of entropy can only be suspended or reversed by an external source of ordering. If something is subject to other natural laws they might temporarily find increased order based on something like gravity, pressure, chemical bonding ect.. Of course all of theses things are still subject to the law of entropy, in ideal conditions external sources of ordering temporarily suspend or reverse entropy. That is completely bound to natural laws including entropy. There is no possibility of such things applying to the creation of life or DNA or a protein. It is UNPOSSIBLE  ;D

In case any of you aren't up to date on your science the Miller experiment demonstrated in the video was refuted in the mid 70's and then dismissed in 95. I could go into a great deal of detail but one of Thrun's websites point it out one of the many issues well http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB035.html
While there attempts to try to make it seem like that isn't a big deal is pretty humorous I must point out my favorite.
Complex organic molecules form under a wide range of prebiotic conditions
LOL once again grasping for hope. To bad they don't define organic molecules, because what there talking about when realistic attempts were tried they rearranged chemicals into cyanide and formaldehyde. Death in a test tube, shame that doesn't help their cause.

Ya i disagree with their stance because it's propaganda. They try to discourage the belief in Jesus with retarded arguments like his birth date on December 25, anyone with half a brain knows that's not his actual birth date. Of course the idiots watching this listening to the baseless arguments wont look into them for themselves and write them off as facts.

Its been a while since I've watched it but i got the gestalt of it. Abolish religion, institute a secular world government, and get rid of the free market monetary system, socialism never sounded so awesome!

Ya I have tomorrow off so Ill take the time for your benefit. I apologize if I came off as to harsh before. My point was simply I don't think your actually trying to find objective proof of the Bible or the person of Jesus. You were just looking for anything that you could find that would reaffirm what you already think.  I mean if you actually cared, you could probably Google every one of those "contradictions" and find the answer for yourself. But the real question is do you want the answer?

I mean so far almost everything you have pointed out to me as being a biblical principal has been wrong and in most cases the exact opposite.
Christians work hard or else they are damned.
A rhetoric that claims to unite all men
A rhetoric that divides men by encouraging elitism
Apparently it's not free, and there are restrictions... money.
God wants us to know of his existence, yet he goes about it third party through Jesus
God loves all his children, but he hates his children that don't follow.
Jesus died for your sins to be washed away, yet those sins keep popping up
Help others so you can help yourself from burning. ect.
How can you claim that something is false, when by your own statements it is clear you don't fully understand it?

Anyway, like I said I'll type you up a book of biblical knowledge tomorrow. For a while I thought why bother, but I <3 you.

....

EDIT: I wrote something arguing some things here, but im deleting it. Its not my place to try to tell anyone they are wrong or what to belive. Im not even sure what I belive honestly.
Religion and faith is a very person thing and arguing about it on the internet on a guild forum is not really respectful to anyone. Your not going to change anyones belief, its better to respect each other of our differences and how each have a unique controbution to society.







unless your nightstalker.... (just kidding man)

I don't mind having my beliefs questioned or I would't enter these discussions but I do mind calling a source of information biased then citing it 5 posts later, taking part of that citation with out noting the rest of it, refusal to acknowledge research or explanations, and trying to pass off BS quotes as evidence of anything.  It's like trying to play cards with some one that keeps screaming "king me" over and over.

I am honestly done with trying to discuss this with you on any sort of serious level, if you ever chose to try and grasp what entropy is or what the 2nd law actually means you can go to the site you just referenced or many others and learn about it.  Or visit your local high school teacher for a more down to earth explanation.

 

Not a big Family Guy fan but this clip is classic.

Listed.


You need to take it to my benefit and download DDO, and roll a char with us.

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Well this is a great one to start with, because it shows how simply looking into a verses context can easily dissipate any apparent contradiction. PSA 145 is absolutely true. As we have discussed before God's patience and mercy are the only reason for the delay in Judgment. Why? so that anyone can come to repentance.  Jer 13:14 Is talking about God's judgment of a specific tribe of Israel. After mercifully and patiently giving them repeated deliverance from their own stupidity and sin. The end of the verse  “I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.(NIV)” Would seem to be a contradiction, but what your missing is that he will not allow his mercy to stop this well deserved judgment. The judgment itself is given why? Jer 13:17
But if you do not listen,
       I will weep in secret
       because of your pride;
       my eyes will weep bitterly,
       overflowing with tears,
       because the LORD's flock will be taken captive.
Even his punishment is given so that his people might come to repentance. Had he not mercy he would have judged everyone for there egregious sin.


War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Great verses as far as contradiction I'm not sure what I'm suppose to see here? The Lord is a warrior when it is necessary to eradicate evil. Can he not be a man of War when necessary and be the God of peace? Peace is only accomplished when there is no longer evil. The eradication of evil is necessary for peace. These two verses are in essence one in the same. Maybe your missing the Why behind the warrior. He is a proponent of war to achieve peace. Exodus is talking about specific battles, but it is the same principal on the large scale, and the end game of Judgment. To eradicate evil not because he thinks it is fun, but to achieve peace and justice.



Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

The reason for the genealogies through out the bible was because it was very important for the Jews. Prophecy in many cases was speaking of genealogies. The Messiah was to come from the Tribe of Judah a descendant of David. If you know that in advance the reason for posting such seemingly non-essential information becomes clear. Matthew is talking about the genealogy of Joseph.  Luke is talking about Mary's lineage. The point was to show that Jesus was not Josephs son, but conceived through Mary by God. So the physical genealogy of Jesus was through Mary. The contradiction comes in when you misunderstand Luke 3:23 He was supposed to be Josephs son, but he was not and his lineage was that of his mother. Which is then listed.  One of the lineages is his legal son ship, because of his step father Father Joseph. The other is his Genetic lineage through his mother.


Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

This one is funny because it says the same person in all three verses. It is very typical of biblical writing to name the most important people first, and the less important people after that, or not at all. The reason Mary Magdalene is so important is because she is the one who did most of the speaking and spreading the word to others about Jesus resurrection. There were others there, but they were non-essential to the story as it applies to the disciples  being told about what happened. Which is what the story is about. There is no contradiction here just less information.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

We already covered this in the doctrine of the trinity. Jesus and the father are one. The father is greater than He. Just like your head and your foot are part of the same body. But, obviously your head is indeed greater than your foot.

Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis chapter 1 is  the sequence of events. There is an orderliness to the description that is lacking in the second chapter. In chapter 2, the writer is not concerned to tell you about the timing of the events because he has already told you that information in chapter 1. His focus is the origin of man and his relationship to God and creation.  You see a contradiction In Gen 2:19 because your missing the word had, God had formed (past tense) then brought them to Adam after he was created.  Genesis 2:18 is taken out of context which is obvious if you read on. The story is about creating woman, not animals.
 But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.


The number of beasts in the ark
GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Genesis 7:2  is saying that Noah should get 7 pairs of clean animals (or animals they were allowed to eat) and 2 each of the unclean animals.  Basically he said bring extra food. Which would make sense as they would need something to eat since they were on the ark for approximately 370 days.

Genesis 7:8-9  is not talking about how many of each animal were on the ark, but rather how the animals entered the ark are there own accord by the command of God.


How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

The number of horseman is the same. As far as the stalls.
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen
The confusion on your part is the word 'urvah translated as stall into English. 'urvah means basically a place to put animals. It isn't singular.
So Kings says he had 40,000 'urvah just of horses, and Chronicles says he has 4,000 'urvah for horses and chariots. Which if you do the math it is apparent he had 4,000 'urvah that held places for ten individual horses and a chariot a piece. But, when talking just about the horses like in Kings it he had 40,000 'urvah for horses.


Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

The verse in proverbs and the verse in Ecclesiastes don't contradict each other. Get wisdom, but more importantly get understanding. With much wisdom comes much grief we know that to be true. 1CO 1:19 Is talking about God destroying the wisdom of the worldly, not biblical wisdom.

Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

That part of Acts is talking about David. Mary was a result of the “fruit of his loins.” Like I said before it was prophesied that Christ would come from the line of David, which he did. Acts is not talking about David knocking up one of his great great great great great grandchildren. Some of these “contradictions” are just ignorant.


The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Isaiah is talking about wiping out a monarchical bloodline in Babylon. It isn't a rule of judgment. It was the ending of a series of oppressive rulers. That to complete he would have to wipe out there bloodline or the monarchy would continue.
That verse in Deuteronomy is part of the Old Law governing the nation of Israel . Saying that in the nation of Israel, you don't judge the parents for the actions of the children and vice versa.

The bat is not a bird
LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

'owph, which is translated above as "bird," would be considered to be any winged creature. The language of English vs. Hebrew Greek Aramaic is so vastly different. Your trying to say that because Moses at the time used a word that would translate best into the word bird today, was somehow his organization of a classifications for animals. The point of these verses was to talk about clean and unclean food, not to classify species.

Rabbits do not chew their cud
LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

"Gerah," the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated "chew the cud" in the KJV is more exactly "bring up the cud." Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.

Chewing the cud refers to any partially digested food. One of the key words here is 'alah, and it is found in some grammatical form on literally every page of the OT. This is because it is a word that encompasses many concepts other than "bring up." It also can mean ascend up, carry up, cast up, fetch up, get up, recover, restore, take up, and much more. It is a catch-all verb form describing the moving of something to another place.  Basically whoever wrote this is saying that Rabbits chew on their partial digestive food, after it is excreted so it doesn't count. It has to be thrown up in his view. Which just isn't true.  Rabbits practice refection a process whereby these animals pass pellets of partially digested food, which they chew on (along with the waste material) in order to give their stomachs another go at getting the nutrients out. That makes them “unclean”.



Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Once again here we are in Genesis that is not a chronological account of creation, but the story of it's interaction. Notice these are 3 verses which go together but are out of order. which he has reversed to make it seem like there is some contradiction. It is simply describing that life was created and flourishing in every plane of the earth. Water, air, and land. Not to mention Genesis 2:19 uses the Hebrew word yatsar  which means formed. And vs 20 uses sharats which means to bring forth abundantly.

Moses' personality
NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."

Well this one is out there. Someone is meek so they can never get angry? Meekness is a sign of humility not weakness. He was angry because the people had violated an order of God. I suppose this could be a contradiction if a meek person could not ever get angry. But, I don't think a human free of anger exist. And of course Moses was the meekest man on earth at the time, not all time. If you study Moses's actions you would see pretty astounding examples of how meek he was.

Righteous live?
PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

These are not even complete verses, let alone complete context. May I introduce you to the following verse in Psa 92 Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God. God is saying that he will tend to the righteous vs. how he will deal with the wicked. These doesn't of course mean monetarily as so many tv preachers would tell you, but it is talking about flourishing in the things that really matter eternal value.  Isa 57 really?  Really? Can I give you the rest of that verse and the ones following it. The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart,and merciful men [are] taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil [to come]. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, [each one] walking [in] his uprightness.  The verse itself explains your "contradiction".

ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

Well I would love to take this opportunity to point out the beauty of the New Testament. It was given to us by God the way it is, so we can corroborate the story of Jesus and the apostles, from different points of view. It is so funny that when two accounts differ they consider it a contradiction, and when they are the same they claim that it isn't original but copied from other accounts.
Each account tends to focus on different things. Matthew is focusing on the actions of the Pharisees , not Judas. In the that verse it was a brief one sentence side note. About the demise of Judas. Can the account of Acts and Matthew be corroborated. Absolutely. How many people do you know that fell and died because there gut bust open and there insides gush out? My guess would be not many. If you know about the Jewish traditions and laws of the time. You know how they feel about touching dead bodies. It was a big deal. So if Judas went and hanged himself and was left there for any length of time. His body would be subject to decomposition, rigamortis  ect. Which would explain why he burst open if he fell out of the tree. Why would acts not include the whole story. Even in acts there not focusing on Judas, there going over the story of Jesus death and resurrection. There focus of this brief description of the death of Judas. Was probably to point of the shame and dishonor which he subjected himself to.


Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

Well neither of these were Jesus first sermon that is an assumption made by the guy who wrote this question. Luke chronicles a number of teachings and sermons before the sermon on the mount. And once again a reading of scripture explains the apparent contradiction. Luke: And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Then he went down to the plain and taught the multitudes.

Matthew: And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying ….

It is obvious in both accounts that Jesus went onto the mountain and taught and talked with his disciples. Then taught the multitudes on the plain which is recorded in Luke.

Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Matthew says and he cried again not saying what. Luke says what he said. And John being the last Gospel written and probably having read the others commented on what he remembered they had left out, and avoid repeating what they had already said. It is not a matter of either or. That he had to have said one and not the other. That's why we have the synoptic Gospels to tell the same story form 4 different points of view. Christ spoke all that is recorded, probably even more than what is recorded in the Gospels. The 4 Gospels enrich each other all giving different details, never contradicting or changing the meaning of the actions or teaching.

Years of famine
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;

Looking into this I found a video, figured I would spice it up a bit. [yt=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ugFqzreFkJM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ugFqzreFkJM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/yt]

Moved David to anger?
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

In 2nd Samuel the authors always contribute any actions as inspired by God because nothing happens without his knowledge. So in a broad sense God did move against David. He allowed Satan to tempt him. Chronicles point out who the tempter was, while Samuel points out why he was allowed to be tempted. God does not tempt anyone. He restrains temptation according to his will.  Notice Samuel doesn't Say God tempted him but God moved against him which allowed temptation to take place. Also for some of you scratching you heads. Why did God not want them to number the people. He was angry because he had delivered David time and time again. Yet, David became prideful. Pride was the sin that moved God to anger.


The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.
See answer to who is Josephs father.  
In addition matthew is a more Jewish perspective on the life of Jesus and his gospel focusses on Jesus as King of Israel. His genealogy, being Joseph's, is along the line of the Kings of Israel.
Luke is a Gentile writing to a Gentile (Theophilus) and he also traveled with Paul in his ministry to the Gentiles, even to the end of his recorded ministry. He focusses on Jesus as the Son of Man. And thus his genealogy, being Mary's, goes back to Adam. Furthermore we notice that Luke's nativity is more or less taken from Mary's perspective, while Matthew's more or less from Joseph's. Which is again consistent with their corresponding genealogies.

God be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)

Once again we have the Trinity. The father, son, and Holy spirit. Jesus could of course be seen and was throughout the Old and New Testament. The confusion comes from people not understanding the nature of God. God was seen in the Old Testament, only, it wasn’t the Father. It was Jesus. Jesus said in John 8:58, "Before Abraham was, I AM." He was quoting God speaking to Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3:14. If you can grasp the trinity this “contradiction” falls apart. The father can not be seen, The Son can. If you would like me to elaborate and go through this verse be verse let me know.


CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)
Once again we have. The God can not be both merciful and judge argument. We touched on this already. Of course once again JER 13:14 speaking of an instance of Judgment as a warning to repent. God's mercy abounds in fact all you have to do is ask for forgiveness. If not you will be counted guilty of your sins and reap the punishment. This question comes from a stance of not even bothering to try to understand the Almighty. His, mercy, his forgiveness, his patience, and then his just judgment. If He is not merciful no sin would be allowed, if He was not patient we would have been judged long ago, and if he is not a just judge then justice does not exist.


Tempts?
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)

Genesis is talking about tempting in the form of testing (nacah) . James is talking about temptation to sin (peirazō). Yes it is a shame English is such a horrible language. Yes it is a shame we all don't speak and read in ancient tongues. Is it a contradiction...no

Ascend to heaven
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)
Ddoes it say Elijah ascended.. No If you got to the verses around it it says he was taken up to heaven. No man has ever gotten there by his own power except for Jesus.

How many times did the cock crow?
MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.

Well, first of all, Matthew, Luke and John don’t say once, they say the cock shall not crow until you deny me thrice.  Now what that is saying is the time for the cock crowing.  I think one of the gospels refers to it this way, the cock crowing, there’s a time in the morning when you call it the cock crowing.  It’s not just one cock, they are just crowing away.  So the Bible says, before the time of the cock.  Matthew, Luke and John say, before the time of the cock crowing, when they all start crowing you will deny Me trice.  Now, Mark is a little bit more specific, and it’s quite interesting, because Jesus is being very gracious to Peter; He said, the cock will not crow twice before you deny Me, thrice.  Now you read the book of Mark, and you find that a rooster crowed, apparently an hour too early.  For the first time Peter denied his Lord, it says, immediately the cock crew, the rooster crowed.  And that should have been a warning to Peter.  But he persisted, and then it’s an hour later before all the roosters began crowing at once.  There’s not a contradiction, in fact it gives us an insight into the grace of God and the warning that He gave.  That’s a very strange thing to say, the rooster won’t crow twice until you deny Me thrice.  Wait a minute, when a rooster starts crowing they all start crowing.  So this is a very specific example of the accuracy of scripture, in fact, not a contradiction.   (courtesy of www.thebereancall.org) There is some more points to add to this but this was a nice summary.


Does every man sin?
1KI 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2CH 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Really, this is considered a contradiction. Wow. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. Let me lay it down for you. We have all sinned and fallen short, the only way to be forgiven is God. Once you are born again your free from sin and it is not counted against you. That is salvation, that is the mystery of God, that is forgiveness you can neither comprehend nor fathom, that is being born again, the only thing it is not is a contradiction.

Who bought potter's field
ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

I suppose if common sense and unbiased reasoning were omitted from this discussion, then one might conclude that these differences represent a legitimate contradiction. If one believes it is wrong to say a father bought a car for his son, when in actuality the son purchased the car with $5,000 his father gave him, then I suppose that Acts 1:18 and Matthew 27:5-6 are contradictory. Judas furnished the means for them to buy the field. Attributing the field to him, in an indirect sense. The terminology is used all throughout the bible. Attributing acts or possessions to the one who provided the means or ordered it to be done. Even though it wasn't a physical action of the person. This was big news at the time If you asked the Pharisees who bought the field they would have told you Judas. Why? Because according to Jewish law they couldn't have bought it, it had to be attributed to the one who provided the means.


Who bears guilt?
GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

A foolish suggestion that this would be a contradiction. It seems obvious that we are to do both, not either/or. Had one of the verses above said to "bear his own burdens only" or to "bear one another's burdens only", then we would have a contradiction. It is obvios that we all bear our own burdens, but we are also to bear one another's in the body of Christ.

Do you answer a fool?
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Certainly you would find it strange that a supposed contradiction be right next to one another. What we have here is not contradiction, but dilemma an indication that when it comes to answering fools, you can't win, because they are fools, and there is no practical cure for foolery. So: It is unwise to argue with a fool at his own level and recognize his own foolish suppositions, but it is good sometimes to refute him soundly, lest his foolishness seem to be confirmed by your silence. Either way you loose when it comes to fools unless they decide to wise up.

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

Come on man this is getting almost laughable. John never mentions the chronological events after baptism. Did you even read this before posting it? Try reading it again do those to verses even talk about the same thing?



Good deeds
Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)

In Mt 5, Jesus is speaking in the context of being the salt of the earth. It is by allowing Christ to work through us that people will be drawn to Him. That is, one does good works to glorify God. In Mt 6, Jesus is talking about doing good works in a self-righteous sense, where one draws attention to self. Consider a very practical example: a Christian who serves by feeding the poor ought to do so humbly and quietly. They will eventually be noticed, if only by those they serve. The same Christian shouldn't be bragging about his work among acquaintances, where a "holier-than-thou" sense is evident. The former approach draws people to God, the latter repels them. It isn't a contradiction it is specific. They use Matthew 5:16 verse 15 is Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 In that same way....
So we are not to boast about our good deeds but neither do we hide them. It is specific about how we conduct ourselves not contradictory.

For or against?
MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)

Matthew 12 is exactly right. The examples given in mark and Luke are talking about the same specific person. The disciples thought that a man might be evil because he was doing miracles in Jesus name, but wouldn't come with the disciples they were worried he might be somehow working against them. Jesus explained to them that he was not against them. When the verse quoted says “he” it is not talking in a general sense but about this one guy. Who was a follower of Christ. Luke 9:50 is the exact same story.


Most of these contradictions have nothing to do with doctrine they are atheist grasping at straws. A few warrant additional understanding, but as it always is with supposed contradictions or hard to understand concepts right behind them is a lesson an important one about the nature of God and our existence. Let me know if any further questions that need answers in your mind. After this I won't be responding to any more copy paste arguments from anyone unless they are something they actually took the time to look into for themselves.

Huge wall of text crits you for 7,000. Your still a man in need of a savior.

Unknow, you take this eternal soul shit seriously, dude. 

wow,that was like reading a thesis

LOL <3

Just a little vid I found on you tube why I was browsing. It is a little old and of poor quality, but it makes some good observations. And it is fairly relevant to the topic at hand.
[yt=425,350]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jZGVnzeDa3E&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jZGVnzeDa3E&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> [/yt]

lol, yeah real great if you like propaganda.

Jesus...

I thank God that he has given me the wisdom to not be railroaded into such cults, which brainwash it's people and hold their followers with terrorism.

It even says some 2 minutes in that if the historicity of the Bible is innacurate, then all other historical documents are inaccurate... are you fucking kidding me?

And then that vid right after says that historians do not question the validity of Caesar's Gallic Wars? Where the fuck do these folks go to school at?

Maybe reading a book outside of just the Bible can help these people with their education.
Then they might know a little bit about historical speculation about Caesar. The fact that he was a political entity and often the information given, such as enemy figures were padded, to make his victories more awe inspiring.

The fact that his accounts of the Belgae are met with speculation, and his accounts with Gaul Arverni in general do harm to the image of celts, being that they were largely portrayed as barbarians, when in fact they were a great people with fantastic metal working, and culture, and even used soap.

Stay in school kids. (or go homeschool if your school is doing the Obama indoctrination)

Sorry Luke, first you suggest that no one questions the validity of the Iliad, then you post a vid which suggests that historians dont question the validity of Caesar. Just stop it... seriously.

This shit might fly with some people who don't have a well rounded education, but being that I have studied antiquity, I have to call bullshit on what your cult is teaching you.

Whats, next? Historians don't question the validity of Herodotus accounts of 1 million+ persians at Thermapylae?

You know Night you never did tell me about your view on the decay of humanity? I would very much like to hear more about that.

Er, view on the decay of humanity?

You should roll a character for DDO and we can discuss this over teamspeak all night while we play. Should be good fun, you know it.

Also your brother is wanting to reroll because his build got owned hard, so you will have some help leveling.

Dude would love to but I hardly have time to tell you about the Lord  ;) Maybe here in December after school gets out.

Edit* You don't remember a few pages back

I'll enlighten you on my knowledge of God in such matters as to the "decay" of people, but only if you would genuinly care.